Full Transcript
Jeff:
Welcome to Blind Abilities, I’m Jeff Thompson. Today, Lisa Bryant returns to the Blind Abilities studio. She’s a writer, journalist, and today she’s going to be sitting down with the first DeafBlind actor in a lead role, Robert Tarango.
Robert:
I can travel and I can do things and I learned those skills at Helen Keller. So if there’s a DeafBlind person out there that says, I can’t do it, I’m like, why not? Go learn, go get that training.
Jeff:
Along with Robert is Doug Roland. He’s the writer and director of the Academy Award nominated film short, Feeling Through.
Doug:
Any time that we work with people who have experiences that are different from us, or have the opportunity to get into a meaningful collaboration and communication with people that are different from us, we learn more about the world and we learn more about ourselves.
Jeff:
So without further ado, here’s Lisa Bryant, and our guest, Robert Tarango and Doug Roland. We hope you enjoy.
Robert:
For us, don’t think that we can’t. I think that we can.
Lisa:
Well, hello, everyone. I am Lisa Bryant. I’m African American. I wear my hair in locks. For some reason, on the east coast, we say locks, on the west coast they say dreadlocks but on the east coast we say locks, and I have my hair up in a scrunchie, and the rest of it kind of cascading down. I’m wearing small silver dangly earrings. And just a note, Robert, I think my vision condition is exactly the opposite of yours. So I have central vision loss, and I see with my peripheral. And I’m also wearing a blue and maroon colored paisley collared shirt.
Robert:
Hi, my name is Robert Tarango. I am a male. I am Native American and Spanish. I have a gray t-shirt on. I also have short gray hair, and I am over 55 years old. Hello, everyone. It’s good to see you all again!
Lisa:
Good to see you!
Doug:
Hi, my name is Doug Roland. I’m a white male in my 30s. I have a dark beard and short dark hair. And I’m wearing a button up shirt that’s like blue and gray checkered shirt. I’m really happy to be speaking with you today.
Lisa:
Well, as I said, I am so honored. Robert, I was telling Doug, I’m gonna try and contain my giddiness, but interviewing my first Oscar nominees, I mean, I think this is to the point of being, you know, having arrived. Congratulations again on the nomination, I have not watched the Oscars in a long time, but I watched it that night. And I literally was sitting on the edge of my chair, because that’s kind of how I watch TV anyway, because of my vision. But it was still the anticipation of that moment. Sorry you didn’t win, but I know there’s a lot of honor in the nomination, so again, congratulations to all of you on that. And Robert, did it sometimes feel like you kind of hopped on a moving train?
Robert:
Oh, thank you for that. For me, I’m just honestly very, very happy. I have, you know, even prior to doing this, being involved with just the making of Feeling Through, you know, being a first time actor, and the first time a DeafBlind person is in a leading role, just to be in the film was an amazing thing. But then to actually be nominated for the Oscar, get to go to the actual Oscars? I don’t think you can describe that kind of happy. And the collaboration with Doug, and everything that we’ve done is just kind of awe inspiring. And you’re right, yes, we didn’t win, but we’re winners, nonetheless. And, you know, just for being on this journey, you know, and it’s unfortunate that COVID is the way it is, we didn’t get to meet as many people as we might have in previous years because of how we were all spaced out. But it was still a tremendous experience being there, and I loved it.
Lisa:
Yeah, yeah, before we get too far ahead, there’s, I don’t know, a handful of folks that have never seen Feeling Through or heard about it. So Doug, why don’t you give us a little synopsis of what this short is about, which is based on a true encounter you had?
Doug:
Yeah, Feeling Through is inspired by a real life encounter I had 10 years ago, it’s, I say inspired because it’s definitely a fictionalized account of it. But you know, the film itself is this story that takes place one night in New York City, between a teen in need and a DeafBlind man, where one of our two central characters, Tereek, who’s the teen, has nowhere to stay that night and he’s out late trying to figure out where he’s gonna stay, and he encounters the other character, Artie, who’s holding a sign that reads that he’s Deaf and blind and in need of assistance. And what initially starts with Tereek tapping him on the shoulder turns into a little bit of a night journey together, and ultimately, they both have something to provide for each other and form a real heartfelt connection by the end of it. Like, like I mentioned, it’s like that was very much inspired by the encounter I had in real life 10 years ago. Some of those central story points are very much borrowed from that experience. And, you know, it was an experience that very much was really impactful for me and stayed with me for a number of years and I wanted to find a way to capture that story and share, first of all, learn more about it through trying to tell the story because I think sometimes when there’s things that happen to us that are operating on a really deep level and perhaps on a number of different levels, sometimes you can’t really fully understand it unless you really engage head on with it. In this case, I’m creating and exhibiting a story, I still learn about it every time we share it somewhere and talk about it with other people. But I also, I knew there was something I wanted to capture in it and share with other people. So that was really the origin story behind it.
Lisa:
Yeah, I want to maybe get back to some of what you did in terms of the fictional part of the story versus the real encounter, but we can circle back to that. What I don’t want to miss talking about, though, is the story behind Feeling Through and finding Robert, and Robert, I would love for you to share, again, the experience of, you know, how one seemingly ordinary day of you working in the kitchen at the Helen Keller National Center turned into you auditioning for this short film?
Robert:
You know, you’re right, I was very much working in the kitchen as an aide, and just taking care of my daily tasks, doing what I do every single day, washing the dishes, sweeping. My boss came over to me while I was attending to my duties, and he’s like, hey, can you come to the office for a sec, please? So I went over, and he had his arms kind of crossed. And he was like, I think you need to go over to- what we refer to as the training building. And I was like, why? I’m like, Did I do something? And he’s like no, I think you need to head over there. I didn’t know what was going on. So I walked on over, went up to our second floor meeting room. And when I walked into that room, I was like, what is going on in here? There were a number of people seated around the table. I never met Doug before, Doug was one of the people seated in that room. I sat down. And then Doug started explaining the project to me, about the film Feeling Through. I was taken aback, I was like what? Like really? We’re gonna do a movie? Yeah, he told me all about Feeling Through and that he wanted to cast a DeafBlind actor in the role. I didn’t want to get my hopes up because I knew there were a number of people who were being interviewed, and I was among them, who were auditioning, you know, fingers crossed, hoping that was me, but at the time I didn’t know, you know, and I really did want to congratulate everyone was involved in those auditions initially. A few days later, my boss again came over to me with that come-here finger gesture. And I was like, okay, what, and he was on the phone, and he was talking on the phone. And he was like, ooh, it’s Doug, and Doug’s talking, and he picked you. And I was like what? He picked me? And just really shouted for joy, because I was like, I’m gonna be a DeafBlind actor, in a leading role, and I was just tickled. Yeah.
Lisa:
And I heard you say that you had at one point wanted to be an actor. So the fact that you actually got to do this, talk about how this was amazing, because you thought maybe you had to table that, because being DeafBlind might have been a challenge to an acting career.
Robert:
You’re right. So prior, let’s think about my childhood. I was not DeafBlind growing up, I was just deaf, so I had a driver’s license, I drove for a year, I absolutely wanted to become an actor, again, because I was just deaf. I had no vision issues, to my knowledge at that point. And so yeah, that was absolutely a dream. At age 31, I went to a doctor because my family had noticed that I was bumping into a lot of things. So they took me to an eye doctor and went through a series of tests where, you know, they were doing peripheral vision kinds of tests, and I ultimately was diagnosed with Usher Syndrome type one, which was honestly very, it was devastating. And you know, I thought as a Deaf person, I could absolutely be an actor, but as a DeafBlind person, I didn’t think that was possible. I needed to focus on accommodating to my vision loss and my new normal, so that I could increase my independence and that’s why I went to the Helen Keller National Center initially. So this, you know, all those years later, kind of, you know, made that dream come full circle and that’s why you can’t wipe the smile off my face.
Lisa:
And we don’t want to. And Doug, how did you guys pull Robert from the kitchen?
Doug:
Well, you know, I reached out to Helen Keller National Center really early in the process because I knew I wanted to cast an actor who was DeafBlind. I didn’t know of any actors who are DeafBlind. And I wanted to make sure this film was made alongside the community. So when we decided to partner together, my co-nominee throughout the Oscar process, Sue Ruzenski, who was the executive director of Helen Keller National Center at the time, and is now the CEO of Helen Keller Services, the parent organization, when we decided to work together on this, I started working closely with the associate executive director, Chris Woodfill, who was spearheading the casting session. He himself is DeafBlind, and he reached out to, you know, his network, both professionally and personally, to people across the country to put together a potential list of parties. It was interesting, Chris, you know, has described it as an interesting process, because there were a lot of people who were a little bit puzzled by the initial outreach and request because they’d never been approached for anything like that. There were some people who were really immediately interested, some people were a little bit, you know, kind of halfway in and halfway out, there were certain people that were just like nah, that’s not something that interests me, but we put together a pretty decent list. We had some people that we were auditioning in person and some people remotely through video chat. And about halfway through the first day, Erin, who’s interpreting, one of the interpreters on this call right now, during a break in the schedule suggested hey, what about Robert, I feel like Robert might be a good fit for this. That’s when, you know, Robert was pulled out of the kitchen and arrived in the casting room. And I guess you could say the rest is history, that it was definitely a very, very fortunate and kismet turn of events to be able to connect with Robert.
Lisa:
Yeah. I heard you say that, in some ways, finding Robert was a little easier than casting the role of Tereek, Tereek is the teen in need that you described in the short. Why is that?
Doug:
Well, you know, I was introduced to Robert like, halfway through our first day of casting and kind of- you know, I still did my due diligence, if you will, and still saw some other people and did callbacks with Robert and a couple other people. But I really knew, from when I first met Robert, that he was the perfect fit. When we were casting the role of Tereek, you know, we saw a number of actors, all different kinds of actors in New York, great young actors, a lot of really talented actors, but none that were just really- I didn’t have a specific visual in mind for Tereek, but I had a specific energy that I was looking for. And none of them seemed to really encapsulate what I thought was like, this really necessary, specific kind of energy that would lead to, you know, the proper dynamic between these two characters. And, you know, it was to the point where we were approaching our final callbacks for that role, and I was like we still don’t have him, you know, we’re doing callbacks, but I know he’s not in there. So we ended up reaching out to do like a last minute kind of self-tape with some actors that put themselves on tape and sent them in, and Steven sent one in, and I’m like, I’m interested here. And Steven was the first actor up that day in our last casting and like, literally the second he opened his mouth I was like, okay, we got him, he’s here. You know, we ended up finishing that casting session, of course, and seeing everyone, but I just knew in my heart of hearts, I was like, the second Steven opened his mouth I was like, we got him. So that was like a real relief, because that was really gonna be our last chance, given our timeline. And it’s just, you know, this wouldn’t be what it is without Steven, and Robert, playing those two roles.
Lisa:
Yeah. So it sounds like both- when you met Steven and Robert, there was an energy there. So Robert, did you also kind of connect right away with Steven, when you guys first met?
Robert:
Absolutely. That happened at the Helen Keller National Center. We were rehearsing in our boardroom, we were talking about the characters, what they would sort of look like and how they would act. And you know, it was the first meeting of us face-to-face. So yeah, it was a good time for us to get to know each other. He had never met a DeafBlind person before. So I think that was, you know, a really critical part of it, in gaining that trust and building that rapport prior. So I think that was really, really important. And that helped us work better as a team. We had interpreters there at the ready, so communication was pretty seamless. We did some just practice together. And I think that rehearsal made it all seamless.
Lisa:
I want to kind of get a sense of what the set was like. Doug, talk first about the research involved in knowing what accommodations you would need on set, and kind of like I said, give us a sense of what the set was like, you know, how many interpreters? Were you swapping out, just this, what kind of accommodations did you have to consider?
Doug:
Well, the research, if you will, I’d say it went well beyond research, because we had, like- between connecting with Helen Keller National Center, and also my, you know, I’m based in Los Angeles, they’re in Long Island. So I was going back to New York a lot to meet with them in person, while also getting to know the community here in the Los Angeles area. But there was like a solid like, seven, eight months that we had between connecting or starting this process and actually shooting that, you know, allowed for there to be like, the formation of actual, like meaningful relationships beyond just research, if you will. And I think that was something that was really, really great to be able to have that additional time. I mean, I’m always, I mean, look, in whatever story I’m telling, I always have a real regard for what I need to learn more about, which is basically everything always. In this case, there’s really specifically, you know, a community that hadn’t been represented on screen before and a responsibility to do that in the best way we possibly could. And that was something that like, myself, and everyone who’s a part of this really had a regard for. But you know, what was great is I got to, like, meet Robert, several times in person prior to getting on set, while also getting to routinely communicate with him remotely or with a lot of people that work with him on a regular basis. And then also having a lot- like our communications team on set, you know, many of them knew Robert very well, for a long time, and have worked with him for a number of years. So there was a real intimacy already and understanding of Robert specifically, and how to best work on set with that. But I did also meet with various departments at Helen Keller National Center, like, you know, the mobility department and a number of individuals there, who were just giving me a further education and kind of like best practices and things to think about on set. So we were really well prepared, you know, in the sense of knowing exactly how to work with, you know, what we had, to create the most accessible and seamless experience. What you can’t fully plan for is the fact that, you know, when you’re shooting outside at night and it starts to get really cold. And then one day it’s raining and things like that, that are out of your control. So invariably, like, what’s the famous quote about the best plans or-
Lisa:
Best laid plans, something.
Doug:
Basically the better the plan you have, the more chance something unforeseen is going to come in and mess it up. So we certainly had our fair share of that as well. You know, I think it was something where we all felt- and obviously, Robert, I’m sure you’ll answer this for yourself, but it felt like a really seamless experience as far as like, it felt very normal for everyone on set. I mean, in the sense that it was also a unique experience for everyone else, because it was the first time anyone else was working with someone who’s DeafBlind. And I think that was something that was a real asset, I think in the sense that it was something where people understood that this was an important story, and Robert’s participation is important when you have that little representation. And I think that made people lean in a little bit more. But other than that, we got along, and functioned very similar to how you’d have really any other film set.
Lisa:
Yeah. And Robert, like Doug said, I’d love for you to speak to the comfort level you had in expressing what accommodations you needed. It sounds like the set did foster that kind of environment, but I’d love to just hear your thoughts on it too.
Robert:
I think you know, for me, it was more about how Doug directed me as an actor more than anything else. And that training that we had at the Helen Keller National Center with Steven, the actor who played Tereek, allowed everything to flow. And you know, having that in advance is what made everything seamless, that collaboration, how we would work together, the ability to study and discuss the script. It wasn’t about memorization and learning it and just going out, because I think that if we had done that without that rehearsal time, I don’t think it would have been as seamless. Doug just made me feel comfortable, you know, everything that he did allowed us all to be comfortable. So the time that he took to learn about me, about the community, and then get into that mindset, when we actually got to the set, made it flawless. And again, I think that teamwork, that collaboration, is really what was key.
Lisa:
Doug, as a filmmaker, taking on a project like this, like you said, it’s very unique. I’d love to hear you talk about- I’m sure there are folks who may not be familiar with, I mean, I’ve had my own experiences of having jobs where I’ve had to explain what accommodations would work for me, and usually it has been very receptive. But there’s still costs to consider. And when you’re making a film, I’m sure you have a budget you need to stay within, I’d like to hear you talk about how that becomes more of a value than what people might think of as a burden.
Doug:
Yeah, you know, I definitely have a lot to say about that. I think especially when you’re talking about a film set, where everything has- there are a lot of costs associated with everything, and there’s a lot of challenges associated with everything that you make in a film, it feels very much of the wrong approach to look at, you know, working with team members who have disabilities as something that’s an impediment, or an extra cost or an extra challenge. Because right off the bat, like literally, everything on a film set is hard and expensive, usually expensive. So like, to start to like, single those out just when you’re talking about people with disabilities feels really just not accurate, for starters. But then beyond that, there’s so many things that are missed when you look through that perspective, of what amazing things are being provided and added to the experience. You know, in the case of Feeling Through with Robert, the experience of making the film for all of us was better having Robert there, first and foremost, because Robert is just a lovely human being with a beautiful heart, and a smile that lights up the room, so that helps a lot. But also the fact that any time that we work with people who have experiences that are different from us, or have the opportunity to get into a meaningful collaboration and communication with people that are different from us, we learn more about the world, and we learn more about ourselves, and there’s real value to be taken away from that. I’m not interested in stories or sets that are just like a clock in and clock out experience. Like I want it to be every step of the way, something that’s adding value to the lives of people that are engaging within that. That also means when you’re on set, and not just when you’re in a movie theater watching it. And I think it added great- I don’t think, I know from communicating with everyone on that set individually, how much value it added to their lives, and how it’s something that they’ll always remember, has informed them as people moving on from that experience. Some crew members really notably talked about these great transformations they went through from being, quite frankly, and kudos to them being honest, afraid, because it was so many unknowns with Robert, just being the fear of the unknown, and not knowing how that was gonna work, or how to communicate with him to literally being just absolutely transformed, and their hearts cracked wide open from going through an experience where their assumptions were one way, the actual experience they had was something completely different. And then obviously add Robert’s beautiful humanity and heart on top of that. So that was just through the lens of Feeling Through, but if you extrapolate that across, you know- there was this great, not to go too deep into this per se, because this could be a whole conversation in and of itself, but there’s a lot of conversation happening around this, you know, just to kind of reference something specifically, this great open letter that Martin Scorsese wrote recently, about how a lot of stories are losing their value because now that we have so many streamers and so much need for content, that things are being looked at as content rather than stories, right? And when you start engaging with things as oh, we just need x amount of hours of content, you start to strip away what makes storytelling meaningful and powerful, why storytelling is one of the oldest parts of our human experience, see, now, what storytelling is born out of, why we engage with stories in the first place. And I think when you look at stories for what they are really meant to be, and the purposes they serve, and how they can be this beautiful ability to not only have us learn more about the world around us, and ourselves, and expand our consciousness around things, but, they’re also something where we use them to accurately reflect the world around us or elements of the world around us to sometimes demonstrate some sort of thinking point or what have you, and how can we have an accurate representation without including all types of people, including people with disabilities, and in numbers that start to approach the ways in which various people exist in the world? So why would we have films where the characters with disabilities constitute like 5% or less, and then don’t even get started with the amount of actors that are playing- with disabilities that are playing those roles, when you have as many as 20 to 25% of the world is people with disabilities. So it’s just like, sometimes the simple math starts to exemplify the problem. And also, just quite frankly, like stories- what makes great stories are new things that maybe we haven’t seen so much of. And quite frankly, a lot of stories that feature people with disabilities are new to most people, because there haven’t been that many. And it’s such a beautiful, unexplored territory. Again, the stories don’t have to be about the disability, but just when you add that new ingredient into the equation, and again, it’s, you know, having quotation marks around that, because it’s only new because of the fact that a lot of people haven’t had the wherewithal to delve into these topics that aren’t new in the world, but that there’s so much rich, rich opportunities for beautiful, moving, funny, interesting stories to be told when they’re more inclusive and include people that we haven’t seen enough of. And that’s something that I know is really important to all of us that had anything to do with Feeling Through.
Lisa:
That is so well said about good numbers and how there’s a disparity to say the least. And as you were talking, I kept hearing impact and lasting effects, whether it was on people working on the set, or even you. Robert, I’ve heard you say in other interviews, how you’re looking at yourself as a role model and how great it is for other DeafBlind students or just moviegoers to see themselves represented. I wonder what other ways being a part of this project has just impacted you personally. I don’t want to- so I’ve seen quite a few interviews, and there was one way we talked about how this circuit, you know, this media tour has helped you in your communication because you’re communicating more than you do, say, at home because I think you mentioned that your family does not sign, if I’m correct on that? So this is one of those wonderful little byproducts, Doug, of this project that has opened a platform for Robert. Robert, talking about other ways that you didn’t even expect your life to be changed, and expect this to have an impact is what other ways this has really just kind of changed your- I don’t want to put you on notice as being the DeafBlind actor representing the entire community. But certainly you are, you know, one out there with an Oscar nomination. So how has it impacted your life?
Robert:
So let’s talk before Feeling Through. You know, I worked in a kitchen. For me, it was about keeping my job. And I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, I’m just saying that I was in a job for a long time, and my goal was to keep my job. So this lit me up, you know, the opportunity to do this just gave me- it invigorated me. So that in and of itself changed my life, this journey to communication, to really fostering my community, to think of the possibility and to be positive, and not to focus on the negative or to be stagnant or to stay in the same, but to look at opportunities. Look at the world around us. Look at whether you’re deaf, you’re hearing, you’re blind, you’re fully DeafBlind, maybe you’re Deaf and legally blind. Look at me, look what I just did? You can do it too, you and I are not so different. And the people that tell you that you can’t? No no, time to ignore that and look at what you can do. Because I think now, society at large, we talk about what we refer to as hearing people, when they see me, they’re like huh. And now let’s take this, and build upon it, and ripple it and start making those partnerships, so that we can do this together, all of us together. And I welcome the industry to invite more of us to the table. Because again, you know, I always thought about do I want to do it? I’m like, sure, but now I can, and now I did. So you can too.
Lisa:
Wow, that’s great. I’ve also, you know, heard a lot- one word we hear a lot, I should say, is awareness, this film raises the level of awareness of the various types of disabilities. And let’s start with you, Robert, where do you see, what do you see as the next step, like what would be the next logical thing we’d like to see rather than just awareness?
Robert:
What’s most important, again, I’m going to go back to Hollywood, for people who are behind the scenes, for filmmakers, actors, writers, look at opportunities that DeafBlind people can be a part of, and don’t be nervous about it or feel fearful, but look at this as an example of what could be. And again, we don’t want to talk about hearing actors acting like Deaf or DeafBlind people, because they can’t, that’s- the reality is that they can’t because this is my life experience. So I’m going to approach this differently than a hearing person would. So, I think that again, not only it’s just the awareness, but the ability to know that you can’t know what I feel. And then to look at me and look at this and say, oh, wow, look at their experience, and look what they can do. And that it’s really not for me to do. Because you know, oftentimes people just look at me and they’re like, well, how did you learn how to do that? And I’m like, I went for a training at the Helen Keller National Center. You know, they just are amazed that I’m independent. You know that I can travel, that I can do things, and I learned those skills at Helen Keller. So if there’s a DeafBlind person out there that says I can’t do it, I’m like, why not? Go learn. Go get that training. I’m hoping that- again, I speak to Hollywood specifically, but that they invite more of us for opportunities to audition. And again, don’t worry about interpreters. I mean, there are interpreters, pretty easy to get an interpreter, once you build a relationship with the actor directly, yes, through a third party, your relationship grows, your rapport grows, how you work together, how we all work together, doing. When you look at the film Independence Day, for example, why aren’t there any actors with disabilities in that? They’re all hearing actors. Couldn’t a Deaf or a blind person be an extra? Couldn’t they be, maybe not the star, but why are we not just being invited into ensemble kinds of roles?
Lisa:
Yeah. Doug, I guess I would ask the same of you. What, to you as a filmmaker, is the next step from achieving awareness?
Doug:
That’s a good question, I mean, I’ll start by talking about I guess, just really specifically some of the experiences we’ve had with this film, which is- I was talking about this on a Zoom that I was on earlier with a DeafBlind organization, something that was really important about our intentions in sharing this film, and what we’ve been like really pleasantly surprised with the response is that there’s been such a small percentage of responses about people feeling sorry for someone who’s DeafBlind or seeing this and going like, oh, I’m so thankful that’s not me, or, oh, that must be so hard or like, I can’t imagine what life would be like that. But there’s so many people that have said, and responded with, really, what seems so simple, but is really kind of the most important thing, which is, oh, wow, like, I really cared about that character Artie. And that character Artie is just like me. And like, that’s so simple, but it’s actually really the most important step. Because when you see someone who you were previously conditioned to, or for whatever reason, thought as so different, and far away from you, as you, it opens up everything else from there. I mean, you start talking about, we want to see more equitable systems and practices in the world around us. And you can force someone’s hand at those, for sure. But like, the more people actually genuinely believe equity is just how, like, an equitable world is just how we should live? Then those changes have much deeper and more profound effects on the world around us. So I think stories are best when they empower the viewer to take their own action. I think stories sometimes overstep their boundaries, when they beat the viewer over the head with, you need to do this, that, and the other. I think there’s a lot of other spaces in this world that could maybe be better spaces to dictate what you should do. But with our platform, even, we save a lot of that for the conversation with the community that happens around the film, not the film itself, but I think films just have the most power when they empower people who watch them to have really simple, but profound takeaways that have these beautiful ripple effects. Because we found, we’ve had so many people that have reached out to us after and been inspired by what they’ve come to understand on their own from this film, to take action, whether that be with someone that they encounter in their daily life, whether that be reaching out to a local organization, or you know, so many schools that we were working with directly, but now that both Feeling Through and the companion documentary are widely available, people building curriculums around these films to share with younger generations, so that they don’t have to be like me and be encountering someone who’s DeafBlind for the first time when they’re in their late 20s, they can be talking about this when they’re in third grade or fifth grade. I think that’s kind of- obviously, we’d hope there’s more films like Feeling Through and what a number of other films are doing out there in just being films that aren’t afraid to be inclusive and talk about a whole host of topics that don’t necessarily have to focus in on disability all the time, but just that are made authentically and with heart so that they have an actual impact on people and inspire people to take their own action and they come to their own understandings.
Lisa:
Yeah. I agree with you, the awareness is definitely a huge first step, but something that- you use the word empowering, or the word, something that’s actionable, that keeps it moving, that keeps it moving, that keeps people involved, and like Robert said, bring us to the table, and bring us to the table in other ways than just acting, maybe, you know, behind the scenes as producers, as writers, the sky’s the limit, right, Robert? Wouldn’t you agree?
Robert:
Yes, very much so. You know, and again, for us, don’t think that we can’t. I think that we can. And be proud, whether you’re a signer or whatever it is, whatever your communication is, continue doing it. We’re all the same. Again, one world is what I always talk about. And I really hope that culturally, you know, when you look at people who are hearing, people who are Deaf come from a different culture as we do who are DeafBlind, but we can still collaborate, you know, we can still work together. I keep saying we are brothers and sisters of one Earth, of one world. This is one kingdom under heaven.
Lisa:
Well, I’m not sure how much more time I have with you guys. But I did not want to lose the chance to discuss what might be on the horizon. I’ve heard you, Doug, hint about some things to come. So should you feel so inclined to share a sneak peek? Is there anything we need to be listening out for?
Doug:
Yeah, we’re definitely really interested in pursuing continuing to develop the feature film version of Feeling Through. And then in conjunction with that, it’s been an amazing opportunity to foster so much conversation around a lot of the topics we discussed today and many more, in sharing the film and the companion documentary, and lots of speakers and we’re continuing that work, you know, developing our own curriculums that are generated directly from the community, so that when schools and other spaces want to engage in discussions around this, they can be hearing, or have prompts directly from the community to help guide those conversations. So that’s something we’re working on right now, and really encouraged by the interests across the country and around the world as well for that, and you know, continuing to use our platform to help generate conversation around these topics. And I’ve personally gotten to meet so many amazing people throughout this process, and I really just wanted a space where I can be like you, Lisa, and have conversations with people that I found to be really worth having conversations with, so we’re going to continue to do that as well, and you know, we’re really excited for what the future holds around all that.
Lisa:
Yeah, well, again, I have to say, I think I’ve told you Doug, how much I enjoyed it, but I’ve watched it with a group, and I’ve sent it to several people, and you should know, Robert, that people were very- it’s a shame they were surprised, but they were surprised at how well done- one, the movie was made, with, two, how real you are, Robert. People just thought your presence in the film was so real. And kudos to you, Doug, for just, you know, that casting and seeing that, having that insight as to the energy that both Steve and Robert can bring to the film. So that was one takeaway is how real it was, and unfortunately, I think in the past, people have not seen good representation of people with disabilities in Hollywood. It’s been either feigned or just in some way, just not authentic. But I’m glad to see that we are beyond that. The only critique that I did hear coming up was the scene in the bodega, where Robert hands Tereek his wallet. Did you- this is at you, Doug. Did you have to decide- you were talking earlier about there are fictionalized parts of this encounter. For instance, Stephen is a young black kid in real life, that was you, there’s a difference right there. Why did you choose that sort of way of portraying their interaction, to show Robert so trusting? And did you struggle at all with whether or not people would receive that as something that might actually happen?
Doug:
You know, there’s a lot of ways in which to go about that, and some of which aren’t necessarily my place to speak on behalf of people’s experiences in the community, though I have had a number of conversations with people in the community who would- there’s some people who said, I would never do something like that, and that’s not a great representation. There’s other people that said they would, and have or have heard of things like that happening many times. I think part of that layer of it is that for me more pertains to the fact that when you have so few stories in one space sometimes one story is looked at to encapsulate an entire community, which is something that we can’t do. I mean, there’s people who have also simultaneously really loved the film but been really critical about not showing certain technology that people who are DeafBlind might use or things- any number of details and the reality of the situation is yes, that’s true for some people’s experience, and for some people’s it’s not. I also realized in learning, connecting with so many more people from the community over the last couple years of exhibiting the film, I know that Artimeo, who’s the man I met in real life who very much inspires the Artie character. I mean, it’s not meant to be him exactly, but he was the real person who inspired that character. He’s very different in how he operates from a lot of people that I’ve met in the community, the degree and depth of adventure, and trust that he places in people, I guess you could say is somewhat aberrational to what some- if you were to like kind of gauge statistically on a whole, I’d say he’s farther to one end of the spectrum than some other people, but he’s also, you know, an exceptional person who I happened to have an encounter with, and who’s very much at the heart of inspiring the Artie character and I wanted to remain true to that because there’s also so much that’s, you know a lot of times people it’s so interesting to me because there’s also so much that- you know, a lot of times people, it’s so interesting to me because there’s also people who have said that that is, you know, I take issue with being, because of Tereek’s ethnicity and his race of taking the money there, and I, you know, people are absolutely entitled to that opinion. I think, ultimately, the only thing that I encourage for people who microscope on that moment from either portion of that conversation is, like, let’s just talk about the context in which it’s happening, and then if you still feel that way then by all means, but like, so a lot of times the context is disregarded, like in Tereek’s situation, yes, he’s black. Yes, he’s also a kid. Yes, he also has nowhere to stay. Yes, he also has no money, which are all very clearly established early in the film. So now when you look at not just his blackness, but his 18-year-old-ness, his not having a place to stay-ness, his having no money-ness, which to me are the more important ingredients in that equation. Look, I thought about that a lot as I did every decision, so I understand there’s certain people who say, if you just portray that it’s just going to be wrong, no matter what, and that’s totally valid. When you look at the Artie side of things people microscope on him getting taken advantage of, but who’s really hurting in that situation, because to me it’s not Artie, who, mind you, people are leaving out he’s the one who’s really leading the dance between them. Yes, Tereek is assisting him to the bus stop. But as far as like energetically, their experience- Artie is the one who is more self-possessed, has more to offer from a growth wisdom standpoint to Tereek than Tereek has to offer to him. Artie is someone who we meet, who is experiencing the highs of having just come off of a date that seemingly went pretty well and is in a pretty good position whereas Tereek is someone who’s struggling in many ways, like in basically every other way other than not knowing where the bus stop is, than Artie is. So I say, when you look at that moment, and you focus in on how Artie is being taken advantage of, I would say maybe it’s a little bit more notable of the desperate circumstances that this young man is in to do something that he clearly even in that moment is shameful of. It’s not like he’s taken, he’s like, yes! He has this shameful look and he’s called out, and then calls out the person calling him out because he feels so uncomfortable about it. And also he has a moment of beautiful redemption at the end of giving it away to the very homeless man that asked him for money in the beginning as a direct result of what Artie has instilled in him. So I just say look, these are touchy subjects, when you have a lot of problematic stories that deal with these subjects, and that also doesn’t mean how Feeling Through deals with it is perfect, people are entitled to their opinions, but let’s not highlight certain details without also talking about the context in which those are happening, that are directly a part of those moments, and then maybe let’s unearth it after we, you know, talk about that context, but I always think context is important because the reality of the situation is, if we feel like the way that we counteract, bad representations of black characters, disabled characters or any marginalized groups by just showing them as these perfect human beings that can make no mistakes, that’ll be the biggest disservice we do, because that’s not a human being, and that’s not something that has any sort of universal connection to anyone, and that’s not going to elicit any sort of empathy. The least empathetic characters are perfect characters that have no flaws, and no weaknesses, and never do anything wrong. That’s just understanding storytelling, and what I can tell you is an overwhelming percentage of people, I would hazard to guess somewhere in the 99% haven’t come away from this film with an absolute love and connection for Tereek and an absolute love and connection for Artie, because of their humanity, both as individuals and shared. So I just encourage, let’s get into meaningful discussions about these things, but let’s also not just fully put a wash over these and say any time you do this it’s wrong or any time you do that it’s problematic, because then we’re actually really inhibiting how the beauty of storytelling can advance the nuanced human understandings of people that are different, and rather than just saying, oh, I’m gonna just make people perfect angels, which isn’t going to do anything. And again, I’m not saying there isn’t great credence to people’s opinions on Feeling Through or any other film, I’m just saying that oftentimes if bringing up the context, starts to get people to think about these things a little bit differently.
Lisa:
No, I agree and I just wanted to add one thing to that, Doug, so well said. In one of the watch parties, we all watched it on Zoom, someone made a criticism, like oh, I don’t know if I would do that, and the person is actually DeafBlind, and she said, I know I would never hand my wallet over to anyone. But someone else said you know something, sometimes you’re in a situation where you just have to trust, and Robert, I wanted to direct that statement to you. Would you agree with that, that- you know, I’ve had to do it? I’ve had to rely on people to help me and I’ve had to put myself in very vulnerable situations, but would you agree, Robert, that there’s some times where you just have to trust? And as Doug said, you’re really the better person in that situation anyway.
Robert:
I think it’s better to trust people than not. I mean, again, as a fully blind person, a fully DeafBlind person, there are some decisions that I have to make, and I’m not saying this to disparage anybody else, everybody really lives their lives the way they live their lives, but if you go through life thinking things negatively and being distrustful, that’s going to lead you down a particular path, whereas if you try and do things positively and be more positive and be more trusting, you know, this is how we change, like, the world at large. I mean, look at me, again, this opportunity changed my life, this chance encounter that Doug had, he wasn’t like, oh my god I’m so sorry, and in the film, you know, when Tereek takes the 10 dollars, I get it, and maybe we meet sometime in part two, Doug, hint hint. And, you know, we find out what he did and he offers it back, and you show the opportunity for him to own it, for me to give forgiveness, because the reality is you have to be able to do that in life. It’s important to forgive people, to be positive, to not be hypercritical, and to see something that’s, oof, that was a really bad mistake, how can I change it? That’s the way we should really be approaching this.
Lisa:
That is a wonderful ending, Robert, thank you for that, and I think I said it ad nauseum, I really did enjoy the film. Well done, all of you. I know there’s so many people that played a hand in making this, so well done. And I’ve been picking up your hints, Robert, about part two. I’ve been hearing you say that quite a few times, so I’m sure if I’m catching it, I’m sure Doug has caught it. So I’m going to- I guess the best way is to just subscribe to the Feeling Through channel, like how do we keep up with what you guys will be up to next?
Doug:
There’s a number of ways depending on what people’s preferences are. People can go to feelingthrough.com and sign up for our newsletter. People can also go to youtube.com/feelingthroughh and subscribe, for people who like YouTube, and then we’re @feelingthrough on all the social media platforms, so we’re routinely putting updates there as well, so I’d say wherever people kind of prefer but you know, as far as engaging with the content, the other content we’re putting up, subscribing to our YouTube channel, for people who use YouTube, is a good place to do that and we always add captions, and you know captions that are just auto-generated, better captions than that, and then also transcripts there. And yeah, those would be the best ways.
Lisa:
Sounds good. Well, again, thank you Doug, thank you, Robert, thank you to the interpreters, great job, such a delight meeting all of you, thank you for your time, and I guess we’ll just stay tuned to what comes down the pipeline next.
Robert:
You’re very welcome, much love everyone.
Doug:
Yeah, thank you Lisa, that was really interesting. It was such a pleasure speaking with you today, thank you so much.
Lisa:
Oh, likewise. Thank you. Take care everybody.
Jeff:
Big shout out goes to Simon Bonenfant for helping put this together. Thank you, Lisa, you did a great job, and for more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app from the app store. That’s two words, blind abilities. Also on the Google Play store. If you want to leave us some feedback, give us a call at 612-367-6093. We’d love to hear from you. A big shout out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music, you can follow Chee Chau on Twitter @lcheechau. And from all of us here at Blind Abilities, to you, your family, and friends, stay well and stay strong. I want to thank you for listening, hope you enjoyed, and until next time, bye-bye.
[Music] [Transition noise] -When we share
-What we see
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[Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]
…We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities.
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