Full Transcript
Serina:
How do we address those issues to be best prepared for successful employment?
Jeff:
Job insights – a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment.
Sarlie:
I work with clients from all over the world to build up their employment skills like career planning, resume writing, mock interviews, disability disclosure, how to get reasonable adjustments in the workplace. It’s a really holistic approach to finding employment.
Jeff:
To help you navigate the employment world and give you job insights to choose the career you want. If you struggle with it, that’s when you wanna find help, that’s when you wanna look up Sarlie, that’s when you wanna go to DVR and ask the employment coaches what can I do to improve my odds of gainful employment? And you can find the job insights podcast on blindabilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities network.
Serina:
It’s so easy to get surrounded by negativity and kind of just jaded perspectives.
Jeff:
Learn about resources for training, education and employment opportunities.
Sarlie:
Just know your value coming into an interview, or when you start applying for jobs so you know what you’re worth and you don’t take less than what you deserve.
Jeff:
Now, please welcome Serina Gilbert, Sarlie Drakos, and myself, Jeff Thompson. We hope you enjoy.
Serina:
During that job interview, you’re deciding if this is an employer that you want to work for in an environment that you feel comfortable in.
Jeff:
From the Blind Abilities studios, this is Job Insights and I’m Jeff Thompson, and with me, we got two great hosts. We have Serina Gilbert, how’re you doing?
Serina:
Hi Jeff. Long time no see, right?
Jeff:
Yeah, it’s been a while since Job Insight’s been on, but we’re back again. And wait, was that a blindness thing?
Serina:
No pun intended, of course.
Jeff:
And on the other side of me, we have Sarlie Drakos, how’re you doing, Sarlie?
Sarlie:
I’m good, thanks, how’re you?
Jeff:
I’m good. You didn’t know I was sitting in between you two, did you?
Serina:
Geographically I guess that does make sense. Although I could be in the middle, if you go the other direction.
Jeff:
Well, whichever way you spin the third rock from the sun, we’re all right here right now. It’s been a long minute since we did the Job Insights, but we’re glad to be back and we’re gonna go into this full force. And in this comeback episode, we’re gonna be talking about accepting blindness, job readiness and building confidence all in an effort to be sure that you are ready as you embark upon searching for that job or the career that you want.
Serina:
Yeah, I’m excited to dive into this topic. For those who listen to other shows on the Blind Abilities network, we’ve talked about this a lot about what does that transition into vision loss look like, especially if you are newly blind or acquired that vision loss later in life and, and how do we address those issues to be best prepared for successful employment?
Jeff:
Yeah. And our newest member, coming all the way from Australia, is Sarlie Drakos. Sarlie, why don’t you tell the listeners who is Sarlie Drakos?
Sarlie:
That’s a very big question. So I’m based in Sydney, Australia, but I run an online employment coaching business, so I work with clients from all over the world to build up their employment skills. So we work through a lot of different things together, like career planning, resume writing. We do mock interviews together. And then we also work through things like disability disclosure, how to get reasonable adjustments in the workplace, so it’s a really holistic approach to finding employment. Yeah, that’s what I do.
Jeff:
That’s really great. I’m really glad that you decided to come and join us because even after meeting us, you still decided to join us.
Serina:
I don’t think she knows what she signed up for. Like, Sarlie, you’re in for…
Jeff:
Well, we’ll see how it goes. If she’s on here for the rest of the show, we must be doing something right. One of the things, Sarlie, that you brought up last time was when you were talking about how you go about your business is you have an intake process, and you want to find out where that person is at. And sometimes you may realize, or we all may realize that someone needs a little bit more before they start embarking upon searching out their career or even filling out job applications.
Sarlie:
Yeah. So I think I mentioned it to you last time, I’m not sure if it was on the podcast episode, but I’ve worked with a lot of clients over the years, and I found quite a few times, when I was working with clients, we would go through the process and I would help them get job interviews and they might even get job offers. And what would happen sometimes is clients would say, oh no, I can’t do this job because of X, Y, Z, and start making all these excuses. And I took a step back, I guess, and tried to think to myself, well, why is this happening? And what I realized was a lot of clients had a lot of fear because maybe they had faced discrimination in the past at the workplace, or they had recently lost their vision, so they weren’t really sure how they’ll be able to work in their role again. So now with my coaching program, something I work on a lot with clients is just trying to understand where they’re at with their vision loss journey as well, or ‘cause I work with people with other disabilities, where they’re at with that and just try and work on building confidence and building job readiness skills, which I think we’re gonna discuss a bit today as well. So I found that if we don’t do that, then it doesn’t matter how far we get into the process, they wouldn’t go through to work in the jobs or whatever that we lined up. It’s- you need to build that foundation.
Jeff:
Yeah, that’s not unlike what we do here in Minnesota, whether we do tech assessments or mock interviews, it’s the evaluations of just interacting with the person that helps decide which is the best way to move forward for success. How about in Colorado?
Serina:
So in Colorado, if someone’s working through vocational rehabilitation, they will start with a DVR counselor usually, and that counselor works with them to identify what their service needs and things like that are. And that could include psychological things if you need that, like, if there’s really like a mental health concern in regard to adjusting to that blindness. It’s totally normal to have these feelings of depression and anger and trying to adjust to a new way of living. It’s a process of kind of that grieving process just as though, you know, you lost someone important to you. You’re going through that same thing with the vision loss, like you might be angry some days, you might be accepting on other days, and then there might be something that comes up that takes you right back to your denial or anger. And if you’re not fully in a good place there, it’s so, so hard to really focus on that job search, or even start to think about the possibilities for how you can obtain new employment after losing your sight
Sarlie:
I do agree. I guess one thing that I could mention is when you are job searching, it’s very emotionally taxing, so it can be really hard applying for job after job after job and, you know, being unsuccessful and not hearing back from employers or going to the final interview stage and not getting the job. As Serina said, if you’re already dealing with things like the grieving process of losing your vision, then it’s really hard. It’s like just another thing on top of what you’re already going through, because it’s hard if you’re already grieving to then go through a process which can be quite emotionally taxing and can be really difficult as well. So with my coaching business, and I know a lot of different companies do it as well, we try and work on things like building confidence and working through that process, so my clients will go and see psychologists or counselors in addition to working with me a lot of the time. Yeah, it’s really important to have that strong foundation, like I mentioned before.
Serina:
I think that when you are having like the stress and anxiety about the vision loss on top of the job search, like you said, Sarlie, I think it can come through in your job interview or your phone screening. I think that you can come across as someone who’s maybe not as confident in their skills and abilities and not sell yourself in the best light. One thing that we do as part of the services with vocational rehabilitation, there’s a couple different ways we can help with building the confidence in addition to some help from a counselor or a mental health therapist, that kind of thing. We can do what’s called a situational assessment with you, where if you are interested in, let’s say accounting, for example, we can have you go onto a job site, usually maybe like a nonprofit or something, and try out some tasks related to that in an actual work setting and learn more about with hands-on opportunities, like what that’s going to look like. If you have to go to school for that to get an actual educational degree and some post-secondary education, we can also couple that with work experience where you can have a chance to essentially kind of temporarily work at a place while you’re getting paid and see what that’s like and help you build that confidence so that when you go to the job interviews for those permanent positions, you can say, well, here’s what I’ve done. I just recently did this, I learned this software, I partnered with these people, and this is what makes me prepared for, you know, this next step in my career.
Sarlie:
Yeah. I think work experience is a really great idea because it can ease kind of the stress that a lot of people face when they’re in paid employment, because a lot of the times people think they have to be, like, perfect at the job off the bat kind of thing. And if they’re just returning to the workforce after a year or two years or more of not working, then, you know, they can be worried about whether they can do the job or not. So having work experience is a good way to kind of get your feet wet again, or ease back into working and build those skills up again, without so much kind of pressure or high expectations, I guess. And then it’s also a good way to network as well and meet new professional connections, it could lead to paid opportunities in the future as well. So yeah, I definitely recommend that to a lot of clients. It’s a really good approach.
Jeff:
Another thing is mentors. If you can find someone that is in the field with a visual impairment, and if they have RP, Stargardts, or something, something that relates to yourself where you might be losing eyesight as you go along, and knowing that, it’d be nice to meet up with someone that has done the job and has lost some sight and went from CCTV to more of the voice screen reader technology, and made that transition. So to find someone that encourages you, that helps you build your confidence that hey, they did it, so it is manageable.
Sarlie:
Yeah. I think that’s what really helped me when I started losing my vision was meeting other people who were still like living independently, and they’re still traveling by themselves and working in these amazing jobs. Yeah. It’s really good just to have someone to ask questions to as well, who’s got the same condition as you or similar life experience. It can make things a lot easier, and it’s a lot- I found for me personally, people would say, oh, you can do this or you can do that, but actually having someone to talk to who’s been in that place and is showing you that they can do that rather than someone just saying, oh yeah, you’ll be fine or you can do this, I think that really helps as well.
Serina:
And I think it’s important when you surround yourself with, like, those mentors and supports in your life that you’re surrounding yourself with those people that are going to- well, it’s important that they’re honest with you, obviously, but that are also going to be positive and lift you up as well.
Sarlie:
Yeah, definitely.
Serina:
It’s so easy to get surrounded by negativity and kind of just jaded perspectives here in the United States when it comes to working with certain agencies and things like that, and it can make you not have the best experience because you go into it thinking that maybe it’s not gonna work out very well or things like that. So also keep in mind that yes, surround yourself with like, all kinds of people, but think about kind of where they’re at in their life and the experiences that they’ve had as well, and are they gonna be a positive influence for you?
Sarlie:
Yeah, definitely.
Jeff:
That’s really important because I have a handful of people I know that want to drag me right back down. It’s easy, especially some sighted people have so much self-doubt in you. Oh, because of your blindness, they understand, like, they don’t get it. They don’t know. So you have to find some people that want to push you and keep challenging you.
Sarlie:
Yeah. If you can find people who are doing things that you wanna do and that you find inspiring then that’s I think really helpful, but it can be a little bit harder to find those types of people. I guess, as Serina was saying, there are a lot of people out there who are quite negative as well. So yeah, I agree. Just try and look for people who are doing all the types of things that you wanna do, and then they can give you advice about that. And, yeah, help you to say that it’s possible.
Serina:
We do also have a Facebook community that’s a companion to the Job Insights podcast called Career Resources for the Blind and Visually Impaired Community. And there’s, gosh, last time I checked, I forget how many there were, it was over a thousand members, Jeff, it’s grown so much, and there’s a lot of professionals in that group that are working and have visual impairments. There’s people that are currently looking for opportunities, people that volunteer, like kind of every kind of stage of the career pathway that you can think of, and generally it’s a pretty supportive community, and if you can ask questions about different things and you will definitely get honest answers and feedback and maybe connect with somebody that is in a career field that you’re also interested entering into.
Jeff:
Mm-hm. It’s even growing more and more as we’re coming out of this pandemic, new members coming on every other week, every other day.
Serina:
There’s some every day.
Jeff:
Yeah. Yeah. Every other week.
Serina:
Jeff, earlier, you mentioned technology, and I think it’s important that we kind of talk about that a little. I’m sure we’ll have other episodes where we dive like way deeper into it, but I think it’s important to talk about that as well as part of that building confidence in getting prepared for work, is figuring out what assistive technology or accommodations work really well for you and your specific situation, and learning those accommodations before you start embarking on that job search, because you’ll need to use those accommodations in assistive technology, most likely during your job search. And then when you are hired with an employer, there’s definitely gonna be time where you can learn your job and learn the software and things like that that’s specific to your job, but it’s gonna be really, really difficult to navigate through that if you don’t know your assistive technology or, or how to use just your general, like Windows, Word, Outlook, that kind of set of software.
Jeff:
As the saying goes, there’s more than one way to skin a cat. I don’t know where that ever came from, but-
Serina:
It’s kind of disturbing.
Jeff:
If you stop and dwell on it, it could be, but…
Serina:
Did your cat just exit the room very quickly?
Jeff:
Let’s just switch it to having more than one tool in your toolbox because when you come across obstacles, it’s nice to have alternative ways of getting around it, getting over it, getting through it. Nice to have more than one way for a solution to the problem of something that may be inaccessible with one of the tools that you have, but another one may get around it. And then you’re just back doing your job.
Sarlie:
And I think there’s so many things that you’re learning when you start a new job, even just learning everyone’s names and the company policies and you know, all the induction policies that a lot of businesses have, that can be so exhausting, and it’s just so much information to take on. So yeah, learning your technology beforehand definitely eases that kind of burden.
Jeff:
And I think one of the neat things about Freedom Scientific with JAWS, they’re always having these little workshops, webinars where they’re throwing tips out there and you can see ’em on all their social networks, and they’re not beginner tips all the time. They’re professional productivity tips. I really like those.
Serina:
They’re starting to dive a lot deeper into, like you said, for example, the Google workspace suite of products, Microsoft Teams, really diving into using PowerPoint, Word and Excel, things that you really do need to have for employability. I mean, not every job is going to be using this level of software, I’m not gonna act like it is, but if you’re doing a job where you have to use a computer for any level of time, you’ll need to learn how to use these pieces of software for sure.
Jeff:
And a lot of these are bite-size tips. You can, over lunch, grab a tip, right? Like that.
Serina:
And I’m curious, Sarlie, I know here in the United States, we know that most employers operate on the PC platform, which kind of means that you need to either know how to use JAWS or NVDA, most likely JAWS. Most employers are perfectly fine with JAWS, NVDA is kind of getting in there too, ‘cause it’s free, but JAWS is definitely more fully featured. Is it similar in Australia where most people use PCs or is it kind of a mixed bag there?
Sarlie:
Yeah, I think most people use PCs and use Windows. Yeah, it’s quite rare, I guess, for people to have Macs and stuff, unless you work for Apple, but yeah, that’s mostly the case and a lot of businesses with JAWS, they, yeah, are happy to use JAWS and it seems to be compatible with a lot of different softwares and programs. So that’s usually what people use. I think a lot of my clients use NVDA at home because it is the free version, and then once they’re in paid work, then they sometimes transition into JAWS. But we are really lucky in Australia because we have something called job access, which is a government scheme which helps pay for assistive technology for people in the workplace. So once a client is placed into paid employment, someone will come and do an assessment of their job and what they need to do, and then will look at their vision or other disabilities that they have to see what kind of adjustments they need. And if they do need any assistive technology or modifications in the workplace, then job access will pay for it and they can pay for training as well. So we’re really lucky over here that we have that when I first started losing my vision, for example, I had ZoomText paid for, and then I had training for ZoomText, and I got computer monitors, which had like an arm on it so I could move the monitor closer to me. I had a ZoomText keyboard paid for from job access, so it’s, yeah, we’re very lucky over here with all the stuff that we get for employment in that regards, all the support.
Serina:
And that’s separate from your like vocational rehabilitation agency, correct? Or is that kind of part of it?
Sarlie:
It’s separate, but Employment Services, we call it DES, so Disability Employment Services will help clients find work. And then once they’re in- placed in work, then you’ll contact job access and get someone from job access to assist with all that technology side of things.
Serina:
That’s pretty cool. I like that.
Sarlie:
Yeah.
Serina:
‘Cause sometimes here, state to state, there can be some barriers that get encountered when trying to get that technology piece. Most employers honestly are responsible for providing that accommodation and financially paying for it if they have 15 or more full-time employees, but some of the smaller nonprofits and smaller employers that would still have 15 or more, but maybe can’t afford it. It just becomes a little bit of a barrier sometimes in trying to figure out how do we get the accommodations that someone needs.
Jeff:
I don’t like to make people feel they’re being a burden to the companies because there are programs where they get reimbursed for that money. So if they buy some technology that helps you operate the copier scanner, at the end of the year they may get reimbursed through the state services for some of that cost as well. It’s just allowing you to do the job that everyone else is able to do without it. It’s a mixed feeling sometimes that people may have, because they don’t want to ask for too much because they want the job, they want to settle into the place, but these are tools that are gonna make you excel so you can look for that next job, moving up the ladder, and that next opening comes up so you can move up a level. If all it takes is a piece of equipment to do that, your future’s ahead of you and these can help you get there.
Serina:
And you just said something that reminded me, we had talked about this a little bit when we, I can’t remember, was that last week, two weeks ago, it all blurs together, but we had talked about sometimes, and this happened, I’m guilty of this as well. Sometimes we’re like, I’m just lucky to have a job. Like, I’m so happy that they hired me. I’m gonna kind of do what I can to keep this job forever and ever, and not really look at, you know, what are the other career possibilities and things like that. Until recently, I’ve been very guilty of that, because when we find that employer that’s really supportive of us and provides us the accommodations that we need, it becomes scarier to kind of look at other employers, even if maybe our pay is not the best or maybe our hours aren’t the best or maybe transportation-wise it’s kind of a pain, but we can sort of make it work. So I encourage you to, yes, get that experience at the employer that you’re at, but if you have higher aspirations, either within that company or even just within the industry that you’re in, or even if you just want to make a complete career change, don’t be afraid to do that just because of the fact that you have some vision loss.
Sarlie:
Yeah. I think a lot of people, and I guess felt that way when I first lost my vision, is like Jeff was saying, can feel like a bit of a burden. And a lot of people think employers aren’t gonna want to hire me because I have a disability. But for me now, at the stage that I’m in in my life and what I try and go through with my clients is just understanding the value that you have to bring to a company based on your lived experience, because we live in a very diverse world, so they’re gonna have customers at each company who have different disabilities or have different ethnic backgrounds, so your lived experience can actually be of value to a company and just understanding all the different things that you can bring to a company because you have vision loss or because you have a disability. It’s a funny way of thinking about things, ‘cause a lot of people don’t think that way. But there’s a lot of studies done as well, which show that people with disabilities actually have fewer OH&S incidents. They have less sick days on average, and they tend to stay in companies for longer. So there’s actually a lot of things that you can actually bring to a company, so just trying to shift your mindset to, I guess, more of a value mindset instead of thinking, oh, this company’s not gonna want to hire me because I have a disability. I think it’s also really important when you’re applying for jobs or when you go into an interview, and seeing yourself as someone who can bring value is really important when we talk about building confidence and going through the employment journey as well.
Jeff:
I’d like to add on to that, what you were saying, I like all the points you’re making there. The other thing is problem solving is something that people with disabilities, especially in the blindness world, that we overcome so many hurdles because we figure out ways to go around it. And so many employers are looking for people who think outside the box or are problem solvers, solution-driven. I like those points you made.
Sarlie:
Yeah, definitely. I think, yeah, problem solving is a big one. It’s something that I do pretty much on a daily basis, having vision loss, and yeah, like you said, it’s something that all employers look for. So I think just having that understanding and being able to then go the next step and communicate that to employers, if you are disclosing your disability, it can make a real big differences as well, because I think I mentioned on the last podcast episode that I was on, a lot of employers might not have had experience meeting someone or working with someone who has your particular disability. So being able to say to them, oh, actually, like, I have this condition, but through my lived experience, I’ve been able to have great problem solving abilities, I’ve been able to learn new technology, I’m a fast learner, and just be able to communicate that to employers as well can be really important, but just understanding it in yourself and having that confidence in yourself, like Serina mentioned earlier, can really show when you’re in a job interview that employers can tell if you feel confident in your abilities and then they’ll feel more confident hiring you. Yeah. It’s important.
Jeff:
I really think those are the things that you carry inside you. It’s not the stuff you put on a resume. It’s not the stuff they’re looking on pieces of paper to find, it’s the way you carry yourself in the interview, that’s the confidence that we’re trying to build, and that’s the confidence that you’ll have the drive you have because you know you’re worth it, you know you can do the job, and you gotta sell yourself. So you want to be that best box of cereal in that aisle when they’re looking for cereal. You have to be able to sell yourself.
Serina:
You gotta be the box with the toy in it. Although I don’t know if they still put toys in cereal anymore. I feel like they stopped doing that, ‘cause Trey definitely doesn’t get toys in his cereal. The other thing too, though, kind of related to this confidence-building piece is that we forget we are- I know it sounds cliche, but during that job interview, you’re deciding if this is an employer that you want to work for in an environment that you feel comfortable in. There’s a lot to be said if you’re made to feel uncomfortable during that interview process in some way. I mean, there’s everything from blatant discriminatory questions to just getting that feeling of not feeling welcome. And it’s up to you to decide, like, is this something that I want to tolerate should I be offered a position, or not? Because you can love the actual tasks that you’re performing in the job, but if the people that surround you and the people on your team and the people supervising you are not positive, then that completely can throw off your work-life balance and make you not very happy there. People don’t leave jobs, they usually leave managers or toxic work environments. So don’t ignore the red flags just because you feel like I have to have this job, or, you know, there’s not gonna be something else that comes along.
Jeff:
I think that covers a lot because when you’re looking for a job, don’t sell yourself short and look for a job that’s less. Aim high and go for it. Experience is the best teacher, so if you go through the process one time, two times, three times, four, that fifth time might be the one, or the second time could be the one. If you don’t try, then you’re not gonna get too far. And if you struggle with it, that’s when you want to find help. That’s when you want to look up Sarlie, that’s when you want to go to DVR, and ask the employment coaches, what can I do to improve my odds of gainful employment?
Sarlie:
And one thing I just wanted to mention, because we were talking about, well, Serina mentioned, you know, sometimes people can feel like they just, you know, that I’m in a job, so I should stay here and I should be grateful, and it’s almost that idea of, like, settling, and I think it’s important to really know your value and to know your worth. And when you go into a job interview, in terms of the negotiating stage, so don’t feel like just because you have a disability that you can’t negotiate. If you’ve got a lot of skills and experience in a particular area, I think it’s important to still feel like you can have conversations about negotiating wages and negotiating reasonable adjustments and things like that. So just understanding your own worth is really important, because I know a lot of people don’t negotiate higher salaries and will take really low wages, even though they deserve a lot more, so I think that’s where confidence building comes in as well. We all deserve to be paid what we’re worth. Yeah. Just build that confidence so you can have that conversation, and it doesn’t have to be a scary thing. I think people, when they think about negotiating wages, they think it’s gonna be some, you know, really intense scene or something like that. But you can just have a conversation about, you know, I’ve worked in this area for however many years and based on my market value this is what I’m hoping for, is there any leeway? It doesn’t have to be a really scary thing, but just know your value coming into an interview or when you start applying for jobs, so you know what you’re worth and you don’t take less than what you deserve, I guess, as well, would be another thing to think about.
Jeff:
Good point. Next time, we’re gonna be talking about building your resume. Not just actually making your resume, but what you can do to enhance your resume through volunteering or internships, or you can go back as far as, like, babysitting jobs, newspaper routes. Anything that you do is something that you can consider for your resume.
Serina:
Oh, Jeff, you don’t know what you’re getting yourself into. I don’t know about you, Sarlie, but I love resumes and can talk about it until I’m blue in the face.
Sarlie:
Yeah. I think, yeah, resumes are something that, I don’t know, there’s so much to understand that I didn’t realize before I started working in the industry. There’s a lot to consider. I think sometimes people just slap a resume together and they’re like, okay, it’s done. But to have an effective resume, there’s a lot to think about, really.
Serina:
And there’s more than one format. Like people always go with like, oh, chronologically, I have to list all my jobs and then what I did in those, and that’s completely not accurate. There’s far more attractive ways to present things, especially if you’ve had a gap in employment, to sell yourself better, so I’m excited that that’s what we’re gonna talk about next, Jeff.
Jeff:
Yeah, I think it’s gonna be a good topic, ‘cause there’s so many areas, but you can break it down and make it manageable. Break it bite-size, right? That’s how you eat an elephant, one bite at a time. That’s how you do a resume.
Serina:
Do you eat elephants, Jeff? Like I’m very- inquiring minds when to know, like, how many elephants have you been eating?
Jeff:
One bite at a time. I haven’t finished my first elephant.
Serina:
All my life.
Jeff:
Alright, well, Sarlie, Serina, thank you so much for being on here and look forward to next time we’re back on Job Insights. So I want to thank you all for listening, until next time, bye-bye. And for more podcasts with a blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app from the app store and Google Play store. That’s two words, blind abilities. And if you want to leave some feedback, give us some suggestions, give us a call at 612-367-6093. We’d love to hear from you. A big shout out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music, you can follow Chee Chau on Twitter @lcheechau. And from all of us here at Blind Abilities, through these challenging times, stay well, stay informed, and stay strong. I want to thank you for listening, and until next time, bye-bye.
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