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Anjie Hall:
So the first step is connecting with the Disability Office and you don’t have to wait to be a student to do that. You can do prospective student appointments, you can do that as a junior or senior in high school, get a sense of the institution.
Jeff Thompson:
Please welcome Anjie Hall, an expert in the disability resources field.
Anjie Hall:
That support network is really, really important to have mentors and to know people who are on similar journeys as you.
Jeff Thompson:
Sharing experiences, advice and insights to students embarking upon their college journey. And without further ado, here’s Anjie Hall. We hope you enjoy.
Anjie Hall:
Don’t be afraid to get out there to experience it. It is uncomfortable and working through that discomfort will really serve you well in the future.
Jeff Thompson:
Welcome to Blind Abilities, I’m Jeff Thompson. Today in the studio we have Anjie Hall and she is an expert in the disabilities resources field. And I met Anjie at the Student Career Networking event put on by State Services for the Blind. It was a real privilege to meet her because when I captured her audio for the podcast we put out on the event, which you can find a link in the show notes, I knew we had someone special, someone who has lived experience and career experience where her voice and actions are making such a positive impact on students with disabilities. Anjie, welcome to Blind Abilities.
Anjie Hall:
Thank you. It’s great to be here.
Jeff Thompson:
Well, it’s great having you. Anjie, why don’t we start out by giving us a little background on how you got to be where you are today.
Anjie Hall:
Happy to do that. So I am a middle-aged Asian woman. So if we had the camera on, I am short, barely five feet, have shoulder length, black hair and have been here in the United States for almost all of my life, but originally born in China, lived in California in Ohio and now Minnesota, was a student in undergrad studying speech language pathology and music as a dual major. Went on for my graduate work to do rehabilitation counseling and also did the classes for mental health counseling. So both holding a certification in rehabilitation counseling, the National Certificate Counselor credential, and then when in Ohio was licensed as a professional counselor.
In my professional career, I’ve had certainly some exposure to vocational rehabilitation in my training. Also as a graduate student, served as a teaching assistant for an Intro to Education class and then started out my work in the disability office at the Ohio State University. Then went on to serve as ADA compliance officer and the Director of Accessibility and Disability Resources at the University of Toledo and now I’m at Minnesota and doing similar work.
Jeff Thompson:
Wow, that’s quite the career, so far. So Anjie, as you were growing up, who was your biggest advocate?
Anjie Hall:
You know, as an immigrant and holding that identity as well as being a first generation college student, I really had to figure a lot of this out on my own. So I was lucky that we had a good family friend who happened to also be blind.
So he, along with my vocational rehabilitation counselor and my teachers, informed my journey to what it was to live with being low vision and now completely blind, making the transitions along the way, making sure that I had the tools and the resources, building up strategies.
I am a mother of four children, so that’s what I’m doing outside of the workplace. I enjoy music, spending time with my kids, doing some traveling. My husband is a teacher, so lots of experiences that are rich in my life and many people, I would say, inform that experience and much of that is being really tapped into communities, whether it’s professional organizations or colleagues who are also blind or friends who both sighted or blind or low vision with various disability identities, has really informed who I am as a person.
Jeff Thompson:
Anjie, then and now, looking back at your educational journey and your career journey as well, today as you see students coming along on their own journey, what are some of the biggest changes that you’ve noticed?
Anjie Hall:
You know, I think technology has really advanced, so watching that has been incredible, right? I feel like on my journey, technology grew with me and I remember the times when we had large print typewriters, had to carry around the Perkins Brailler and now everything’s electronic and literally at our fingertips and we have readily available built-in tools and there’s not as much of a need for adaptive technology.
I also watch the attitudes of people and as we become more of a global society, that people are more accepting as I worked with students at the beginning, almost 20 years ago. People were much more hesitant to share that they had identity of disability as part of their lived experience and now students are willing to identify as disabled and be proud that that’s part of who they are as a person. And that’s really been very positive. I’ve watched also in media how disability has been more positively portrayed over the years. So I really think that society is my hope that is becoming more comfortable with disability and specifically blindness.
Jeff Thompson:
I can really relate to what you said about technology growing with you throughout your journey because when I compare yesterday and today, there’s a lot of technology out there today. And I noticed that school districts sometimes provide students, well, the whole school with notebooks and Chromebooks and other tablet type of devices. Yet I don’t think that this really prepares a student for the type of technology that they’ll need as a embarking upon college and the workplace.
Anjie Hall:
Absolutely. In the workplace and also in higher education post P12 experience, we’re heavily reliant on technology. And so the productivity tools that exist in P12 aren’t going to be necessarily the tools that one uses in higher education or in the workplace. The better somebody is prepared to utilize a laptop, whether it’s a Mac or PC and effectively be able to use a screen reader or zoom functions or built in functions to a system, the more ease that transition will be and the more smooth it will be into higher education or the workplace.
As a blind individual, I know that it’s very real that overcompensation is a thing, right? Not only do we need to adjust to college to the workplace, we also have to adjust to utilizing all the technology that comes with that experience. So the better prepared we can be ahead of time to have a general knowledge of how software works and how to interact with it, how to best learn, where do you get the resources to better understand usage.
It’s like a foreign language when we’re talking about using a screen reader with various technologies. And when you approach websites or web applications, every experience is different for us because of the design and the better equipped we can be going into the digital space, the better it will serve us because there is also the importance of being able to keep up with productivity. And part of that is knowing the technology, being able to utilize it so that we don’t get stuck at, oh my goodness, I’m running into a technological barrier or I don’t know how to use this part of the application without assistance or I need to learn the keystrokes to be able to use this app. And I think about when I came to Minnesota, I needed to learn the Google Suite and what that experience was like to self-learn as a screen reader the software when I’ve been used to the Microsoft platform the whole time. It’s really a whole different experience.
Jeff Thompson:
Yeah, and if one tool isn’t working for you, hopefully you have one in your back pocket that will work. Anjie, what advice would you give to a high school student who is starting to look towards their college career?
Anjie Hall:
I think it’s really important for college students to think about where their strengths are, where they want to be in the workplace at the end of a college experience or post-secondary experience. The hope is that one can find themselves in employment and taking a look at it holistically of what are the steps to take to get one into that place, right?
So finding a college, making sure that you can major in what you need to, making sure that the college has the appropriate resources and accommodations to support a student’s journey throughout college and then transitioning into the workplace. Is there a good collaboration between vocational rehabilitation and the university or college and are there partnerships with career offices? Do they offer opportunities for job fairs?
Are there student work opportunities? But first and foremost, there are many, many choices out there as blind people. We also have those choices. We just need to be asking the right questions to make sure that it’s a fit for us as much as the institution seems to be a good fit academically.
Jeff Thompson:
As a student looks for colleges to attend, what should they be looking for in a disability services department at a college?
Anjie Hall:
Be ready to have a conversation about what has worked for you, what has not worked for you as a student and providing the information of yes, I am a Braille user. I do find that tactile graphics are supportive because that’s the equivalent of being a visual learner or maybe you’re an auditory learner. Then it would be important to make sure that textbooks are going to be in a format that you can digest and comprehend the materials in a way that is going to support your learning. So if you are a JAWS user versus NVDA versus voiceover, there are some unique differences of which format may work best, right?
Asking the college what formats do you provide? Is it EPUB? Is it PDF? Do we have options for a Word document or Google Doc? Will you provide image descriptions or work with the instructor to provide image descriptions because there is highly visual contents in courses? And in the case of labs, will there be the opportunity to have a human serve as the eyes and hands and descriptor of the visual material? If you’re in a chemistry lab, that’s going to be crucial that there is somebody who can provide access to describe what is there. Of course, as a student, you have to come prepared and know what needs to be done, know the terminology, just like any other student.
And that access assistant is there to provide you with the context of what is going on visually. Other things to think about is asking, is there a paratransit system if getting around campus could be a concern.
Learning a little bit about the residence halls. Is there a residence hall that has a dining facility that’s close? Somebody makes a huge difference. Location makes a huge difference, right? Do they clean snow rapidly in Minnesota?
Very, very effective at cleaning snow because we get so much of that. But maybe a student would like to go somewhere warmer where they don’t have to contend with the barriers that exist when snow falls. Getting around campus and thinking about is it a large campus? Is it a small campus? Have you had a blind or low vision student before?
That provides context, right? It can be quite the experience if a college has not worked with a blind or low vision student. And certainly we have strong networks of professionals, but it may be a little bit uncomfortable for a while as they are trying to figure it out as an institution while you are also trying to figure out your experience as a student.
Asking also if there is technology available to you in addition to what is being brought by you. So a lot of schools have agreements with companies that you can download software such as JAWS, ZoomText, Fusion, under your personal computer and utilize that as long as you’re a student. And some campuses have IRA available to help with visual interpretation and access to activities as well as navigation around campus. So really digging into asking this is what I anticipate I will need a college. This is what my experience has been in high school or in the workplace. Let’s put it together. What is available at your institution?
Jeff Thompson:
That’s where self-advocacy and self-determination come in and why it’s so important.
Anjie Hall:
Yeah, you know, there’s student responsibility and that is what every student is responsible for, right? Including a disabled student. The advocacy piece really is that you are connecting with the disability office, that they are a partner with you and your instructors so that they can remove the institutional barriers. That is up to the disability office and instructors to work out together and informed by you, the student who says, hey, this is what works for me. Let’s talk about problem solving and how it can work in this class. Instead of saying, well, you can’t do it. We want to take a look at, yes, we can do it. The how looks a little bit different, but the what, which is what needs to be accomplished in every class, that does not change. The expectations do not change. We just do it differently.
Jeff Thompson:
Such a good feeling to know that you’re not alone on this journey when you have a disability services office available to you where you can find out this information and help you self-advocate through your journey. And determine what you want and what you need and how to get it.
Anjie, at the student career networking event, I met a grad student who also is an O &M instructor and he was concerned that students make determinations upon campuses by the size of the campus such as a large campus might be hard to get around in where a small campus would be something more fit for someone who is blind and low vision. What are your thoughts about the size of the campus from a blindness perspective?
Anjie Hall:
I chose a medium-sized institution for my undergrad and my graduate experience. I did look at large institutions at the point of knowing that my vision was gradually disappearing. I chose a smaller campus that was 20,000 rather than 50,000 plus, and navigation was going to be more convenient for me.
Bigger institutions also have paratransit, which is a door-to-door service generally, and that could be helpful. But I really think it depends on how comfortable one is in that environment. And people choose big schools or small schools minus the blindness.
Really, it’s about like, you know, if you came from a small town, you might want the big city experiences for something different, or you came from a large town and you prefer a smaller school. They exist, and they all have disability offices. Really, the trick is getting to know the institution, their disability office, how supportive the community is, and then going from there.
Jeff Thompson:
When is it a good time for a student to introduce themselves to the Disability Service Office, to the professors, so that they can start the process and basically disclose that they have a disability?
Anjie Hall:
Yeah, so the first step is connecting with the disability office, and you don’t have to wait to be a student to do that. You can do prospective student appointments. You can do that as a junior or senior in high school, and talk to the Disability Office, get a sense of the institution. You can also meet with folks on the academic side and learn about the fields of study and see if there’s a major that fits what you want to study.
And then once you decide on which university or college you want to attend, then you can look at how to get connected, how to get started. Disability offices have that information on their website, and generally it will be talking with somebody in that office to set up the accommodations.
And then from there, generally a letter would be generated with a list of accommodations each semester, so that it can be shared with instructors. And once the instructors know that you have accommodations, then it is important for students to have that conversation because there are logistics that need to be worked out, or nuances in each class that specific access needs to be taken into account.
So having that conversation with the professor can go during office hours, do it by email. We can do a Zoom meeting by phone. There are different methods. The important part is as soon as that letter is provided to the instructor asking for that meeting to talk about the logistics with the professor.
Jeff Thompson:
I can relate to that because in my college career, I had a professor that I met in their office, and they told me that they thought I was stuck up or that I wasn’t know-it-all because I didn’t make eye contact, that I looked just right past them. And once they found out that I was visually impaired, they then understood why I wasn’t making eye contact. It’s just so important to make that contact with the professor so there’s an understanding, a communication that you have regarding your disability. So quickly, I found out that it was really important to hear directly from the professors.
Anjie Hall:
Yeah, for sure, right? Like, people aren’t going to necessarily come to the conclusion that it’s blindness first. And so I loved your example.
I had a situation where, like, I left my cane in the residence hall and I said, well, you know, I’m just going across campus, it’s going to be a short trip, and I should be fine to catch the bus and go back to the residence hall. Well, unfortunately, I got on the wrong bus and I had to explain to the driver, I’m sorry, I got on the wrong bus and I need to go back to where the bus stop is. And it’s because I’m low vision and did not see which bus it was and did not ask, right?
So that taught me that it’s important to make sure that I do somehow identify as a blind or low vision person, not just for myself, but everybody else around me, right? Like, we’ve had the experiences of running into a tree and saying, excuse me to a tree or not seeing that there was a barrier in front of us and running into it.
If we don’t have a cane, a dog, something that indicates that we’re blind, people are not going to necessarily go to blindness first as a way to explain why you just ran into things. Don’t be ashamed of using the cane, having a dog, utilizing technology, because it helps you to be perceived in the right light, right? I rather that people think that I’m blind and I’m drunk, right? So there’s different perspectives when we talk about kind of like the attitudes that society has about disabled people or just people in general.
So making sure people have the right information and explaining to instructors when they think, oh, you can’t possibly do it if you cannot see. Coming in always with solutions.
I had a professor who was like, well, you cannot be in my class because it requires you identifying rocks. How are you going to do that? Well, identifying rocks means that you have to know the properties and the characteristics of the rocks. And as long as somebody was able to describe the features of the rock, I could identify what that rock was.
Jeff Thompson:
You just brought me back to my astronomy class when the professor told me that I don’t know how you’re going to do the lab portion of this course. And it was really, it was kind of ironic because I showed up at all the events on top of the building where we got to look through telescopes at certain events that were happening in the sky.
And I always brought a friend who it always seemed that my friend that I brought was more interested than I was in a sense. But you’d be surprised sometimes that how many people want to help collaborate on, especially on the top of a roof, looking through a telescope. It was kind of a neat experience to do it. And yet, you know, here, the professor just discounted me right from the beginning, you know. So with campus life, extracurricular activities, the well-roundedness of the experience of being on campus, are clubs and activities, something that someone who’s blind and low vision can experience?
Anjie Hall:
I would say yes. Certainly, I’m going to be a friend and say it is uncomfortable. The social spaces, because you don’t know who’s in that environment and what’s in that environment, makes it a bit uncomfortable. So everybody is able to come in who can see and take a scan of the room. We don’t have the luxury of doing that and let alone like who’s in the room.
And certainly, like you can use smart classes in your phone and technology to compensate for some of that by getting descriptions and context. But I found really that not showing up alone works out the best. If I am able to go to an event with a friend or with a group of friends, that makes it more comfortable.
Some schools may be willing to provide an access assistant, a human assistant to accompany you to some of the events. But I would say that the social space is still difficult, right? And with the availability of Zoom and other platforms, I think as blind people, we have a lot of opportunities to connect other ways. But to really be fully engaged in the campus experience, it is best to meet other students and also balance that out with making sure that you’re connected to other blind and low vision students and talking about your experiences and comparing notes and seeing what that looks like for them.
That support network is really, really important to have mentors and to know people who are on similar journeys as you.
Jeff Thompson:
I remember that first semester, that first year, just trying to get familiar with the campus itself, the facilities. Where’s the coffee shop? That stuff was important. And I didn’t join anything really extracurricular until the second year. Just because I knew the campus, I knew where things were, I made friends.
And sometimes you tag along with someone else that you’re interested in the thing that they’re doing. Or someone tags along with you because they’re interested in the thing that you’re interested in as well. Slowly, the immensity of the campus itself gets broken down and it becomes your backyard.
Anjie Hall:
Yeah, the beauty about being in a college environment or in a work environment is that there’s always commonality to talk about people. And college are going to be talking about their classes and their professors and how assignments are going or that they have to read 100 pages for one class per night. And so you always can start at that college experience piece. And the same with work.
When you’re in a workplace, there are commonalities and shared experiences. And you can start there and then get to know people. The same applies for student organizations or community organizations. When you choose an organization, it’s a special interest most of the time. So you show up and everyone else is also interested in whatever that topic is or that specialty the organization is offering. Recreation is a big piece of that too, right? So are there opportunities to go to the rec center and be able to work out if that’s something that is of interest to you?
Are you able to participate in things like plays and concerts, lectures that come to campus and in getting there, having the materials ahead of time, be ready to say, yes, I want to attend this program and I need the information digitally or in Braille. Having the force out to do that and the good news is that many, many organizations now are providing that on the get go, right? The digital information is already accessible so we can show up like everybody else and be able to have access to the same information.
And so that’s another like positive trend that has happened over the years. But being connected is important. We don’t want people to sit in their residence halls or to sit at home and worry about what is happening in the workplace.
And then some of it is also education of people, right? It’s important to say, yes, I’m not going to step out of my office too often because it takes a lot of energy to use a cane and not know who’s around and run into barriers, right? But you’re welcome to come visit me in my office.
Please approach me and people might not be thinking about that until you name it, right? So part of what we do as blind people is teaching others around us about how best to interact with us and also making sure that people understand that my experience is my experience. Another blind person is going to have a different experience.
Jeff Thompson:
I remember the autonomy at the University of Minnesota. It seems like you’re the blind Waldo, you know, the blind person amongst thousands of other students. And yet at a small college, you may stick out a little bit. But once you get acclimated to it and familiar with it, it’s just that the students are just like you. They’re new, they’re curious about you as much as you are about them. Yeah. So Anjie, any parting words to the students who are looking forward to their college journey?
Anjie Hall:
Yeah, I would say don’t be afraid to get out there to experience it. It is uncomfortable and working through that discomfort will really serve you well in the future. Don’t be afraid to ask questions, to share your lived experience and advocate for what works well for you. And be ready to give back too, right? As you progress on this journey, I find that college students, it’s always scary and exciting at the beginning and they get to the middle and end of their journey. And it was fantastic.
And they want to connect with other students who are beginning that same journey. So the cycle begins again. But the difference is that perhaps that new student coming in has additional perspective because we are willing to share our experiences as people who have gone through that experience.
So definitely tap into the networks, do the reading piece of research online and talking to people, very much be up to date on technology and what is available. And I think that the formula for success in college is truly that is that you’ve done your part and the institution does their part. And it prepares you then for the next chapter, which is the workplace where the workplace looks a little bit different.
There isn’t a disability office quote unquote, there’s human resources and certainly there can be accommodations. But the educational experience is really a training ground to get to know more about what works well for you and develop some of the skills and the strategies, getting to know the resources and the tools so that you will be ready and competitive when you go into the workplace.
Jeff Thompson:
I like how you always bring value to the person with the disability because what you said there and last time we talked, you mentioned that when you’re going to the job interview that you’re also interviewing them. So you have value and you’re not just begging for a job.
Anjie Hall:
Yeah, that sense of confidence and value is really important. And if you ask questions and it doesn’t feel right, don’t put yourself in that situation, right? There are many, many options out there. And we as blind people can take a look at situations just like anybody else and say, this isn’t working for me, or I don’t think this will work for me. Let me look at something else. So we have control over how we react and our choice that doesn’t get taken away from us. And it is really the most valuable piece to us and how we live our lives.
Jeff Thompson:
Great advice. Anjie Hall, thank you so much for coming on The Blind Abilities and sharing with the students your advice, your experiences and insights. You’re a voice that needs to be heard, which I’m sure will help so many students as they navigate their college journey. So thank you very much.
Anjie Hall:
You’re welcome.
Jeff Thompson:
To find out more about all the programs at State Services for the Blind, contact Shane.DeSantis at state.mn.us.
That’s Shane.DeSantis@state.mn.us.
Be sure to contact your State Services for the Blind, your Voc Rehab, and find out what they can do for you. Live, Work, Read, Succeed. I want to thank you for listening and until next time. Bye-bye.
[Music] [Transition noise] –
When we share-
What we see
-Through each other’s eyes…
[Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]
…We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities