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Leslie: My parents never told me, you can’t do that because you can’t see. And it didn’t matter what I wanted to do.
It’s become my attitude for life in general. I don’t need to get to the top. I don’t need to get to the finish line today. I need to get further than I got yesterday.
What is my vision going to be like today? How am I going to work around it today? And when it was gone? It was almost a relief.
Jeff: Welcome to Blind abilities. I’m Jeff Thompson. Today in the studio, we have Leslie Dickson, and I met Leslie through woodworking for the blind. And you can find more about Woodworking for the Blind at WW4B.org. Leslie, welcome to Blind Abilities.
Leslie: Thank you for having me.
Jeff: So why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself? Who is Leslie Dickson?
Leslie: Oh, well, I was born in Alabama, near the coast. We went to the beach a lot when I was growing up, and I was born with some vision. Born with a disability called Coloboma. And it affected my eyes from the front to the back. And so I had light sensitivity and nearsightedness and, and a variety of other visual impairments. And it’s a fairly rare condition. Not even a lot of eye doctors knew much about it at the time. It’s something that kind of gets mentioned in a textbook but is very rarely ever seen. So we just kind of had to figure out what I could see and what I could do as I went.
Jeff: As you went and you made it all the way to today where you’re working for the VA.
Leslie: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. My parents never told me you can’t do that because you can’t see. And it didn’t matter what I wanted to do. If I was sitting in the car and my dad said, hey, we’re going to move the car down to the other end of this parking lot. And I was like, no, I can do that. And he’s like, okay. He always encouraged me. He took me out, taught me how to ride a bike, how to listen for traffic and cross the street, and everything I needed to know to the best of their ability, and made sure I got the education that I needed and the materials that I needed in school, and just always encouraged me to find ways to do whatever I wanted to do. And I think that was huge.
Jeff: And he had no experience with blindness or vision loss.
Leslie: No, none at all. I was the first person in my family born with any kind of visual impairment. You know, it’s like I said, rare condition. So even the eye doctors didn’t know much about it, and there weren’t any guidelines as to what I’d be able to see, what I wouldn’t be able to see. Um, and they kind of had to wait until I was old enough to tell them what I could see. And, you know, of course, we had our we had our frustrations and headaches over things, but it was always encouraging. And go out and do what you want to do and we’ll figure out how to do it.
Jeff: So the big question is, did he tell your mom that he was teaching you to drive the car?
Leslie: I’m not sure if she knew. I think it was kind of a spur of the moment thing. So we were watching my brother practice baseball, and my dad came up to the car and I was sitting in the car reading a book, and he said, hey, we’re going to move the car down to the other end of the field. And I happened to be sitting in the driver’s seat. I don’t remember why, but I said, oh, well, I’ll do it. And he just said, okay. And he stood outside the car window and told me what to do and kind of jogged alongside the car as I drove. And there was no plan, just let’s do it.
Jeff: Well, let’s just tell the listeners a little bit about what you do today at the VA.
Leslie: I went through school. I got a degree in industrial design, which is product design, and then I got my master’s in vision rehab therapy and went to work for the VA. And now I teach in the manual Skills department, and Manual Skills is designed to help veterans learn how to develop spatial awareness, how to maintain orientation, problem solve and build strength in their hands and improve their dexterity. And we do that through woodworking projects, leather working projects, ceramics, metal embossing. And oftentimes we’re just in there having a good time and we’re making a project that they can take home with them so they don’t even realize that they’re learning things. We try to keep it a nice, relaxed environment, and we talk about advocating and, you know, if you need visual assistance to, hey, I painted this birdhouse. Do you walk up to somebody and say, how does it look? Or do you say, hey, I painted this birdhouse blue. Did I miss any spots? Can you show me where the spots are? You know, we talk about how those kinds of advocacy questions and problem solving skills develop and translate into other areas, and hopefully they get to go home with a really nice product that they’ve made. And it’s something to be proud of. And oftentimes they come in, especially this time of year, and they want to make gifts for family members. And it’s great. I really enjoy it.
Jeff: How do you measure your success with clients or customers? What do you call them? Clients?
Leslie: Clients or patients?
Jeff: Patients.
Leslie: It’s an inpatient program through the VA hospital. And so they come and stay with us for 4 to 6 weeks at a time. We have classes every day. And they have a variety of classes in ADL and mobility and technology training and of course my manual skills class. And oftentimes we get people who are new to blindness. And our age population is generally about 60 and over. So a lot of what we see is, you know, macular degeneration, diabetic retinopathy, age related blindness. And maybe they’re coming to us for the first time. And I really like the ones that are first timers, because they get the opportunity to learn what they can do and walk away with that and know that blindness is not the end. They’re not going to go home and just sit in their chair and do nothing for the rest of their life. They can get out and do things and do whatever they want.
Jeff: What’s that like for you to see that growth in them? I mean, it’s a short period of time in the big picture, but what’s it like for you to see that growth in them, the acceptance of blindness in a sense.
Leslie: I love it. I want people to realize I like being an example. So we talk a lot while they’re working on their projects and getting to know each other. And, you know, I tell them I travel all over the States, all over the world, and I hope to travel all over the world one day, but I’m working on it, and I try to just kind of talk to them about different things and what they would like to do. And they may say, oh, well, I can’t do that because I can see or I used to like to do this, but I quit when I lost my vision. And we talk about how they can continue doing that. And so I really love seeing the growth, especially for somebody new to blindness, the realization that, hey, maybe I can do this, or the realization when they realize that I’ve been working with them for two weeks and they suddenly realized that I can’t see at all, and that that floors some of them.
Jeff: What kind of tools do you use at work that help you do what you do?
Leslie: I use the Click Ruler a lot. That is my favorite tool when I’m measuring and helping people with projects. But I also use seeing AI a lot. I use my versa slate, which is like a refreshable slate and stylus. So when I am working with a veteran and having to give them information. You know, if I read that information from my computer and then I go find them to relay that information, chances are I’ve been sidetracked ten times and distracted about things. And I have tons of things on my mind. And so the chances of me actually remembering that information by the time I find them to relay it is sometimes slim. So having my versus late where I can quickly jot down a note in braille and then relay that information to them and erase it as needed, and use it again for the next person is a critical tool for me.
Jeff: And that’s where you just punch in from the backside and then you read it on the front side?
Leslie: It’s just like writing with a slate and stylus in Braille. You’re punching in with the stylus from the back, flipping it over and reading the information on the front. But instead of on paper, when you’re pressing from the back side you’re pushing pins out on the front. Then when you flip it over and you read it and you’re ready to erase it there buttons along the edges that allow you to pop the pins back in and wipe the slate clean.
Jeff: And that’s called the Versa Slate?
Leslie: That’s a Versa slate. Yes, it’s a four line slate. 28 cells.
Jeff: Why don’t you go back to the click ruler to explain what the click ruler is to someone that doesn’t know?
Leslie: So a Click Ruler is a 3/8 inch threaded rod housed in a case, and the rod has been milled flat on top and bottom and on the top. A thread from the rod has been left every half inch, and you can use those half inch markers to count up to six inches. And then as you slide that rod in and out of the case, there’s a spring and a little ball bearing inside that makes a noise as you go over each thread and as you hear that click that’s letting you know that you are moving the rod a 16th of an inch at a time for each click. And so you can do your larger measurements half inch and 1.5in, two inches. And then if you need to go down to the 16th level, start slowly moving the rod in or out of the case to adjust it by a 16th of an inch and counting the clicks. And they are not only audible, but you can feel it clicking into place as well as you move it. And the rod, like I said, is six inches long. The case is marked at six inches, so that’s another six inch measurement you can make. And then you can add one foot extension rods to that.
Jeff: Yeah, that’s a very unique tool. And it’s like making a template for your cuts.
Leslie: It is. And you can even lock it down. So if I’ve made a measurement I can lock that measurement into place with a set screw. And then I can use that to go set up my saw or mark another board or whatever I need to do to transfer that measurement. And I don’t even necessarily have to know that measurement. If I measure a block of wood and I just need to transfer that measurement. I can make that measurement, lock that into place and move it to the other board, or set up the saw, whatever I need to do without even knowing what it is. And so it’s a very quick, efficient tool. And I’ve even got the sighted instructors in the classroom using it now. So they have learned that if they need to set up the saw for a certain measurement, they take the click ruler and measure the piece of wood they need to set it up for, and then set up the saw. And they don’t have to worry about whether or not they can see the marks on a tape measure or how accurate that is, so they’ve learned to like it as well.
Jeff: I think students caught on really quick when I was teaching how you hook the back end of the click ruler, say you’re measuring eight inches, then you slide it over and bring the blade down just so the board slides underneath it on a chop saw, and all of a sudden it goes Tink! Yep. So we always reached Tinkage.
Leslie: Tinkage, I like it.
Jeff: Yeah, it’s the click ruler that got me. I think that was one of the biggest confidence builders early on n woodworking. It was like the realization, I can do this.
Leslie: Yeah.
Jeff: What other type of woodworking do you do as a hobby or do you teach the patients?
Leslie: So most of our patients, they’re only there for 4 to 6 weeks. And so that’s not a lot of time, especially if you’ve never been in the wood shop before and know nothing about woodworking. It’s not a lot of time for me to teach somebody much about it. And so often what I get are people who come in for the first time, and they will generally start with a pre-made project that we have cut out already. We, you know, birdhouse pieces or bird feeder and We just started making these little toy trucks for Christmas, and we have an amplifier box where you can put your phone down in it and amplify the sound when you’re playing music. And, you know, those are all kind of starters where maybe what you start learning about woodworking is sanding and finishing and learning to feel which way the grain is running and the shape that the sandpaper is. If you’re using like an 80 grit to shape the edges, how that sandpaper is affecting the wood and then you learn how to glue those pieces together. And so you may not actually, as a student may not get into the wood shop your first time through the program. And then if you come back another time and you have an interest in that, then we’ll go over and start kind of exploring the shop and talking about safety techniques. And then I have my experienced woodworkers who come in and say, well, I lost my vision and sold all the tools in my shop, which just breaks my heart. Man, I wish I’d gotten to you first. And they come in and we just go over shop safety and how to use the tools when you can’t see them. And then I’ve got my guys that have been there multiple times who are experienced woodworkers and know what to do, and you can almost kind of turn them loose. But we really start with especially like an amplifier box. Maybe their first introduction to woodworking, outside of sanding and assembling that box is taking it to the table saw and squaring up the edges. If they’ve glued it and it’s not quite straight, we can just take about an eighth inch off of each side and square it up again. And some of them are absolutely not. They may come in with me while I do it, and they don’t want to have anything to do with it, but watch me do it, and then some of them will go hand over hand while they do it. And I always know where my hands are, not only in relationship to the blade, but in relationship to their hands. I have places on the saws where I can monitor what they’re doing without getting my hands in the way of the blade, and try to keep everybody safe. They may come in and want to do their own woodworking project, and maybe that’s just building a picture frame for their copper picture, and that’s a start. But I love it when they want to go in and they want to learn, and they want to experience getting their hands on the tools and making their first cut. Sometimes all they make is one cut and they’re like, no, I’m done, but thank you. Thank you for letting me do that. And that’s enough. But it’s built their confidence. And then they know they walk out of there knowing that they can do it if they want to.
Jeff: It’s really interesting when they come in. And I mean, I’m not so sure about veterans, but in my teaching, once they get their hands dirty, it’s a new thing because they’ve been, you know, I can’t do anything like you mentioned that can do attitude. And then, you know, they’re getting sawdust on their hands and it’s like something foreign. And but they get over that. And then that little bit of growth that you see as they move forward and then like your return, once you ever get the times where a newbie is in the class and you got one that’s been returning and they kind of like take them under their wing a little bit.
Leslie: Yes, that’s always nice too.
Jeff: I think when you can start to show a person what you’ve learned in a sense or helped them along, that’s when you start really learning, too.
Leslie: Yeah, and I learned from veterans all the time they come in. Even if they were just asking me a question that I don’t know the answer to. Huh. Okay. I’ve never thought about that that way. Let’s explore that. And how do we get that information? Sometimes it pushes my problem solving ability. Sometimes I have veterans that come in here. So much knowledge that I just. Okay, you teach me. I’ll teach you how to do it safely. You teach me how to go through this process and we learn from each other. And man, the days that I come home covered in sawdust and paint or stain. Those are my happiest days. And I’m often I’m the one that comes into a meeting, you know, filthy. It never fails that I’m wearing black or, you know, something when I’m in the wood shop. So I come to a meeting covered in sawdust. I’ve often got leather dye on my hands or sometimes my face, so everybody just expects it at this point.
Jeff: Well, that’s really neat. It’s really neat that you get to see their growth and stuff. I think some people learning Braille is another world, some people learning other techniques is good. But I think woodworking where you’re actually working with your hands. I think that’s very unique to me. I think it is.
Leslie: Yeah, yeah. You know, I don’t have any place to have a shop at home. I live in an apartment, so I’ve got a nice patio, but I think my neighbors would kill me if I bought a miter saw or anything that was out there standing and sawing and making a lot of noise. But I get to experiment with stuff in the shop if we come up with an idea, hey, let’s go in the shop and try it at a veteran just a week or so ago. When I get home, me and a friend are talking about making these nesting boxes for ducks, and I don’t really know where to start with that. And we googled the information. We found some measurements and things weren’t real clear, and so we decided to experiment with ChatGPT and say, hey, give me step by step instructions on how to do this. And it put the information in a format that was, at least for me, a little easier to follow. Now, I did have to go through and check all the measurements and realize if we build it with those measurements, it’s going to look really weird. So we made some adjustments and went into the shop and made this nesting box, and it’s still sitting on the shelf in there. I haven’t assembled yet. It’s all cut out and all the holes are drilled for drainage and ventilation and everything I need. But it’s fun to come up with a design or hey, what do we think about this? Can we make this happen? For a while? We had a birdhouse design, and then we had a veteran that came in and said, I want to build a bird feeder. And I’m like, okay, let’s what can we do? Do we start from scratch? Can we take this birdhouse design and modify it and make a bird feeder? And that’s what we ended up doing. We took the side walls off the bird house. We made it a little bit taller. We built a tray around the bottom and put screen on it and voila! We had a bird feeder and it took getting in the shop and kind of experimenting and trying out different things. And I really enjoy doing that.
Jeff: Yeah, I think that Innovation the like. Even when you talked about using ChatGPT, it’s nice to throw some data in there. Some people say, oh, that’s cheating, you’re not doing anything. But ChatGPT doesn’t give you specifics. Like you said, you had to correct them. It gives you a brainstorm, though, that allows you to at least have some text to bite on to, to chew, move around a little bit and to wiggle and everything like that until you find something that’s good. Because sometimes when you go into these magazines, they say, build the best birdhouse in the world. It’s loaded with commercial advertising and all this other stuff, and you have to turn the page and snap another one and see what you can get. With ChatGPT, you can just say, I’m interested in blah, blah blah and go from there.
Leslie: Yeah, streamline that information.
Jeff: So what was your educational journey like? I mean, as a kid you probably needed some accommodations and then high school, College your masters.
Leslie: Yeah, in elementary, middle high school. I had large print textbooks from middle school through high school. I actually went to a school that had the like a state school for the blind regional center housed inside the building. So I was able to go to mainstream classes with all the other students, but I had the resources right there to keep my large print books. I had a place where I could store them that was, you know, bigger than a regular high school locker. I had the ability to go down if my teachers were going to give a test or a worksheet, they could send me down there with it and have it enlarged, or they could send it down there ahead of time and have them enlarge the information for me, and then any tools that I needed. If I needed a monocular for reading the board in the classroom or I needed books on tape or whatever I needed, they were able to at least get me to the person I needed to talk to get that material. And so that was that was great to have that for the last, especially through high school where high school is stressful enough and middle school too, especially when you’re changing classes and going from class to class. All of that is stressful enough navigating without having to be three weeks or more behind because you’re waiting on a large print material to come…
Jeff: Oh yeah.
Leslie: …from a resource teacher that only visits the school once a month. That was really useful to have that right there at my fingertips. Same in college, I went through Voc Rehab, and was able to get what I needed, and when I went through design school, that was really interesting because I was the first visually impaired person to go through the program and no one knew what to expect. We were all making it up as we went along, but I was blessed to have a building full of professors who were career designers who decided we’ve had a career in product design, and now we’re going to teach it to people. And so if we couldn’t solve a problem, it was like, can we build something? We had a wood shop and a metal shop right there in the building. And it’s like they would go build me tools. Hey, you need to be able to cut. You need to be able to use this exacto blade to cut halfway through a quarter inch piece of foam board, or cut two thirds of the way through a quarter inch piece of foam board in a straight line. How do you do that? Non-visually how do you do that and be able to judge the depth? They went down and made an acrylic depth guide so I could put my exacto blade right through the middle of it to get the depth and make my cuts. And that came about by okay. What is the angle that you need to be able to hold this tool? What? And we’re making this out of pieces of foam board or cardboard or how does, what does this look like. And then they were able to just go down to the shop and make it. And so we had a problem in the morning. And by the afternoon I had a tool to help me solve it.
Jeff: So you got a degree in problem solving?
Leslie: A degree in problem solving? Yes. Which is, you know, a lot of what product design is. You’re coming up with a design and then you’re trying to figure out, then you got to work with engineers. And okay, here’s my design. This looks nice, but how do we make it functional. And the engineer says, well, it’s not going to function at that size. We got to make it bigger. This part has to be bigger. Well, now how do I make it functional and still look nice and still feel good in the user’s hand? Still feel good in the hands of somebody who’s five foot versus somebody that’s seven foot? On top of all that, how do you make it aesthetically pleasing so that somebody’s going to want to buy this product? And so it’s all about problem solving, which, you know, as a blind person, I already that’s, that’s my whole life.
Sometimes is problem solving. So it was a lot of fun. And the professors were always helping me come up with modifications or things that would help me succeed in the program. They really wanted me to succeed in the program, and they did everything in their power to help me do that. And that included sometimes as I was losing my vision through the program, hiring grad students to do my AutoCAD work and turn my whether I was using cardboard or Legos or whatever things I could do to build my models, turning that into a digital concept. But that meant that not only did I have to come up with the concept, I had to present it to them in a way that they could understand to transfer that concept to the computer. So I had to maybe I had to build models, maybe I had to be really descriptive in my narrative of what I was trying to build, and give them the ability to visualize what I was trying to do.
Jeff: That is almost a prerequisite. Some people have it naturally and stuff, but when you’re teaching people how to use their hands to not just woodworking like you said, but to do other things, leather work and all that stuff, Sometimes I told people, what do I do at work? It’s like I take thought bubbles and put them into reality that someone can build.
Leslie: I like that.
Jeff: Because, how many times did you sit down with…
Leslie: Exactly.
Jeff: …with a patient and just say, what do you want to build? And they come up with this idea and in your mind you’re not even listening anymore. You’re going, okay, pine three quarter inch.
Leslie: Yep.
Jeff: Piecing it together in your mind. And then you have to bring it down to something that can be successful. Not that you can make, You don’t want to make it for them.
Leslie: No. Definitely not.
Jeff: Something that is possible. And knowing what tools you have and all that stuff so that problem solving comes in handy. And that’s a lot of what problem solving is when you’re in the educational realm of schooling and at work.
Leslie: And we do quarterly supply orders. So depending on the part of the quarter we’re in, a veteran may come in with this elaborate idea. And I’m going, oh God, we have like six inches of leather and three foot. Of board. How are we going to do this? Because I want them to be able to make whatever they want to make. And sometimes, I mean, sometimes you just have to say, we can’t do that right now, but sometimes we just got to get creative. What do we have in this room or in this building that I can use to make some semblance of this? And maybe we only end up making a concept that’s or a model that’s not going to be functional and useful, but it gives us some ideas for next time.
Jeff: I never thought about students leaving my class and becoming carpenters, or becoming fine woodworkers and stuff, but, if they would be sitting at a table in their apartment and it wobbled a little bit, or a chair and their hand went down and found a wing nut or something, and they started tightening it, instead of just saying it’s broke, they at least investigate the situation and then find out, oh, here’s a bolt, here’s a nut, here’s I’m going to tighten this or I need a Phillips screwdriver. That’s lifelong. Like, you know, you could feed someone fish, but if you teach them how to fish. And I think woodworking classes.
Leslie: Yes.
Jeff: You teach something that gives them the confidence that will be lifelong.
Leslie: Yeah. Even if all they get from it is, hey, my toilet is running and it’s running and then shutting off and then running and then shutting off. Well, I know what that means. I’ve learned what that means. I don’t remember how to fix it, or I am still not comfortable fixing it that myself. But I know what the problem is. I can call someone to come fix it, and when they come fix it, I understand what they’re doing.
Jeff: Yeah. So you mentioned Voc Rehab a little bit along your way. How was voc Rehab part of your journey?
Leslie: Kind of varied. We had some rough spots where at one point I was told, especially when I wanted to go to grad school, that they didn’t have funding for grad school, you know, to pay for grad school. And so I paid eat for a lot of my schooling on my own as far as tuition, through student loans or other means. But where voc rehab was really useful for me was getting equipment, and I didn’t mind getting the smaller things. You know, maybe if they got me something like a Victor stream or a Booksense and it broke, it didn’t necessarily go back to them for the replacement, but they were really critical in getting me things like a laptop and a Braille embosser and Braille notetakers and things that were much more expensive.
Jeff: So, Leslie, what advice do you have for someone who’s going through vision loss, whether they’re in high school or whether they’re 60 years old or older?
Leslie: One of the things that I learned when I went through training is when I was at LCB, they took us to Arkansas to go rock climbing, and I was climbing a rock one day and I was tired. This was toward the end of the week, and we’d been climbing every day. And the person that was giving me instructions on which way to go, where my handholds were. And I kept trying to reach this handhold and I kept missing, or I grasp it and I kept slipping and and he encouraged me to stop and rest. And then I tried again and I couldn’t do it. And I said, I, I’m done. And he said, are you sure? And I said, yes. I said, I can’t make it. I just can’t reach that today. And so he brought me back down and he told me I could see that you were tired. He said, I could see your arms shaking. Your muscles were past the point of fatigue and I could see you were done, he said. But I wanted you to realize that that you were done. And I said, you know, I appreciate that, and I want to come back tomorrow and do it again. And I said, I don’t need to get to the top, I just need to get higher. He said it’s the perfect attitude for a rock climber, but it’s become my attitude for life in general. I, I don’t need to get to the top. I don’t need to get to the finish line today. I need to get further than I got yesterday, and maybe that meant backtracking a little bit and taking a couple steps back and resting. And maybe that means I only move forward by an inch, one handhold higher. But as long as I’m moving forward in some way, shape or form, that to me is my goal. And it doesn’t matter how I get there, it doesn’t matter how long it takes. As long as I’m moving forward, that’s all that’s important.
Jeff: That’s great advice. I think that’s one of the biggest hurdles that someone comes along is it takes me longer.
Leslie: Yeah, sometimes it does.
Jeff: Especially for someone that just lost some vision.
Leslie: And especially if you’re losing it in stages and you wake up and I went through this, I wake up going what is my vision going to be like today. How am I going to work around it today. And when it was gone it was almost a relief because it was one less thing I had to deal with and what I wish I’d learned before I even lost it was how to just set it aside and be like, you know, it doesn’t matter that my vision is fluctuating and it’s changing every day. I don’t necessarily need it. I can do this without it. So I learned that after the fact. But it took that to kind of get through to me and, and help me realize that my vision, especially there toward the end, was a distraction.
Jeff: And you experience that all the time with new patients coming in wondering.
Leslie: They’re trying to use that last little shred of vision and they might only have a pinhole. And they’re doing their darndest to see it. And they’re sitting there and they’ve got their work right up at their nose. And they’re just can’t see this. And I’m like, why are you trying use your hands, feel what’s beneath your fingertips, and let’s go from there. Maybe they’re sewing a wallet together. And I’m like, use that needle like a cane, move it around the edge of your work and see if you can use the needle to find the next hole. You don’t have to see it.
Jeff: It’s quite a journey.
Leslie:
It is.
Jeff: And every journey, everybody’s journey is a little bit different. So I’m glad we were able to capture a little bit of yours on this episode. And if someone’s interested in woodworking, what would you suggest for them to do?
Leslie: Start learning about it? Maybe work with somebody else on a project? That’s, that’s kind of how I learned. Oh, you know, what are you doing? How are you doing that? Can I try it? And don’t be afraid to try it.
Jeff: Yeah. I think one of the biggest things about losing eyesight is sometimes people are told to figure it out yourself. Learn best by doing it yourself. Don’t ask questions. I I’m totally the opposite. Like on WW4B, Woodworkers for the Blind. I ask questions, because…
Leslie: yes.
Jeff: …those people are so experienced and they’ve done stuff for so many times and they’re so willing to just break it down for you. I’m glad there are places out there, and I’m glad the veterans have you and your class to accept their blindness and grow.
Leslie: Yeah. One of the things I tell my veterans, I get veterans that come in and I’ve been woodworking for 30 years, or I was an electrician for 25 years. Well, that knowledge is still there. You didn’t forget how to be a woodworker. You didn’t forget how to be an electrician. You didn’t forget how to fix the stuff in your house. I just need to show you how to do it differently. And I try to encourage them, especially the ones that have done like home maintenance or electrician or plumbing. How many times in your life have you been working on something in a closed space? It’s over your head. You know you’re hanging upside down, trying to fix something over your head and behind you. You’re not looking at that. More than likely, you’re using your hands. You’re feeling with your tools, fixing parts in a car. You didn’t always use your vision for things. And hold that thought in mind while you’re learning, so that you realize that your vision wasn’t always required when you had it. It’s not required now, and it’s okay. And we just need to work on organizational skills or especially organizing your workspace. How do you keep all your tools where you can get to them during a project? How do you keep from losing things when you drop them, and spending the time to do that and realizing that you didn’t learn anything quickly the first time, no matter what it was, you took the time to learn it slowly, and you build muscle memory. And that’s what we’re relearning, something you already know. But we’re taking the time to build that muscle memory and organize ourselves and practice good techniques.
Jeff: I like when you said you’re in predicaments where you can’t see what you’re doing, when you’re trying to screw something together like a nut onto a bolt and it’s upside down underneath you, it’s not righty tighty anymore.
Leslie: No it’s not.
Jeff: You have to flip it in your mind for a second. So there’s a you lose about two seconds. There you go. Um, okay. This way.
Leslie: I just had that conversation with a veteran yesterday. He was trying to do something, and he went, oh, and he turned it around. And I said, yeah. At that moment when righty tighty, lefty loosey fails you.
Jeff: Yeah. Well, Leslie, thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your life and blindness and what you do and everything, And excited to have you on here. It was really good.
Leslie: Well, thank you so much for having me, I enjoyed it.
{Music}
Jeff: For more podcasts with The Blindness Perspective, check us out on the web at BlindAbilities.com. Download the free Blind Abilities app from the App Store and Google Play Store. That’s two words Blind Abilities. And if you want to leave some feedback, give us some suggestions. Give us a call at (612) 367-6093. We’d love to hear from you. I want to thank you for listening. And until next time, bye-bye.
Outro Voices: When we share-
What we see
-Through each other’s eyes…
[Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]
…We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities