Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
3D printing is an additive process.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Plastic being heated up \u2013 think, like, a hot glue gun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s like a hot glue gun.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The hot glue gun will move around on a bed where it will lay down, layer by layer, an object.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
3D printing prints with plastic, it\u2019s called filaments, and it\u2019s about the thickness of pasta. You thread it through the printer, through the extruder, which is the top, it\u2019s the hot metal end. The filament extrudes out of the printer, the printhead then touches the bottom build plate.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So you essentially start with one layer, so you have a square that\u2019s hollow, your bottom layer will be an entire flat square.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The printhead moves and it draws the outline of the shape, and then fills the shape in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Several layers up you\u2019ll just have the walls of the square.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:
Welcome to Blind Abilities, I\u2019m Pete Lane. Today we present a follow-up interview with Caroline Karbowski, CEO of See 3D Incorporated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:
I asked her what was a castle to you, before you felt the model, and she said castle was just a word, and it didn\u2019t mean really much. I decided that I need to do more models, because we need to make things more than just words.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline joined our podcast back in 2017 as a high school student, with an idea and a passion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
-and even DNA, that was a highly requested model.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Today she returns to Blind Abilities and shares her progress on that idea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What I\u2019m hearing here is you\u2019re developing a network of entities that have 3D printers that want to participate in providing 3D models for people who are blind.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:
Exactly. We\u2019re now having students print themselves, with screen readers, and then they can print the model and send it to a printer that we\u2019re at. Especially with COVID, students are at home, and we\u2019re with the printers. If they can print the model where we are, then we can mail the models just like how students are mailed their school supplies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And her passion, which still shines brightly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It\u2019s just really exciting because we\u2019re getting to do two great things: we\u2019re making it accessible and we\u2019re able to do it during COVID.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Today we also meet two of her See 3D team members: Garrett-<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:
Not treating people like they can\u2019t do things, treating people like they can do things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
-and Kara.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Disability is just the lack of accessibility. Disability isn\u2019t the disability, that\u2019s a disadvantage, it\u2019s the lack of accessibility. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff had an opportunity to chat with Garrett and Kara, before Caroline joined the rest of the team. And now, without further ado, let\u2019s join Jeff Thompson in the Blind Abilities studio, with his special guests, the team from See 3D Incorporated.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Can I ask each of you to give an introduction?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Hi, my name\u2019s Garrett Carder, I became a part of See 3D freshman year of college, so I\u2019m a junior at Ohio State right now in computer science, and what I do for See 3D- well, my official title is CTO, but what that really means is I work on everything with the website, and just about any technology initiative we do, so I\u2019m very well-versed with the printers and all those kinds of things, and we\u2019ll get more into some of the technical details of that later. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
My name is Kara Herzog, I\u2019m the social media manager for See 3D. I got involved this past spring at a career fair, I just came across the booth and I was like, this is so cool and I applied and I\u2019ve been doing marketing for them since May. It\u2019s really great, I\u2019m a marketing student at Ohio State, so I really like working for See 3D. I never even heard of it before, like, I never thought of that, like 3D printing, I knew it was a thing but I never thought of like how you could use it in the real world like that, and I think it\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I was at the NFB convention, I was wearing my Blind Abilities t-shirt, and she walked up to me and said \u201cHi, are you with Blind Abilities?\u201d You know, because of the t-shirt, I suppose that was a giveaway. She actually came to the NFB convention to check it out, I mean, that\u2019s how much passion she had for what she\u2019s doing, for 3D printing for the blind. Yeah. That was really something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
She\u2019s very active in the community, I mean it goes a lot deeper than just our company. She\u2019s really involved in all the events, and going to things to be involved in the community more so than just to build model requests and keep doing what we\u2019re doing. I have a lot of respect for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
When I was talking with her, she had just gotten a couple schools in the area involved in printing up 3D images for the blind, it\u2019s grown since then. So, what\u2019s the reach right now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, we\u2019ve been trying to reach out to more schools. I\u2019m not sure where we were the last time she was on the podcast, but now we\u2019re in OSSB, that\u2019s been a thing for about a year now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s Ohio State?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:
Yep, that\u2019s the Ohio State School for the Blind, which is about three miles north of the Ohio State campus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, okay.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
We\u2019ve been involved in the OSSB Space Science Mentorship Program, so that\u2019s through OSSB and Ohio State, and we\u2019ve been donating models for them to do that, which is really cool. My boyfriend\u2019s actually an astrophysics major, so he\u2019s been mentoring some students who are blind, which is really cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So now they can touch the stars.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s cool. Garrett, you said you know a lot about 3D printing, can you explain to people what 3D printing is?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, so, essentially what you have is plastic being heated up, think like a hot glue gun, and essentially what\u2019s happening is that that hot glue gun can move around on a bed where it will lay down layer by layer an object. So essentially you start with one layer, so you have a square that\u2019s hollow, your bottom layer will be an entire flat square, and then several layers up you\u2019ll just have the walls of the square. And then when you get to the top it\u2019ll complete the square essentially with that motion.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, cool. So how does the 3D printer get that information?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
It all starts out with a 3D model file, typically in the format of a .scl or a .obj file extension, those you can find many places across the internet, I know Caroline has probably 20 different websites she uses. The main one we use is thingoverse.com, you start with that model, and then you plug that into a piece of software, where it essentially translates that 3D model into code the printer can read. It\u2019s essentially a path for the printer to follow, is what it gets turned into. And then, yeah, you run it on the printer and it just does its thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So if someone had something that\u2019s unique, how would someone get that information into a file so it can feed it to a 3D printer?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Are you talking about very specific models that may be on the internet?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, say someone made a prototype of a widget, whatever, how would you go about having an object from scratch?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, I see. Yeah, so there are many modelling softwares out there, some being very in-depth, some being very simple, for example tinkercad\u2019s very on the simple end if you\u2019re just getting into it, where you can just kind of take objects and fuse them together, subtract them from each other, change the sizing of them, and then you have more complex modelling softwares where you can actually make drawings and then extrude those drawings or cut holes from the drawing and things like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, wow.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:
The actual process, the way it works out for See 3D, is as soon as we get a model request we usually peruse through the internet to see if we can find it somewhere else, and just to obviously save time on our end, if we realize okay, we can\u2019t find it somewhere, then we have a channel on Slack with several designers who can actually do that for us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
That\u2019s great, the network.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:
Yeah, exactly, I mean that\u2019s the one thing that I\u2019ve really learned from See 3D is the power of networking. We\u2019ve really found a lot of connections to make this possible, I mean, this whole operation really wouldn\u2019t be possible if the people we\u2019d found- there\u2019s a guy named Jamie who, anytime we need something, can always model it for us or print it out if we need it. That\u2019s just to name one, there are several more.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara, social media, how can people find more about See 3D Inc., incorporated?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
See 3D, yes. So our Instagram is See, S-E-E dot 3D, and our Twitter is see3dprinting. That\u2019s the handle for that. Yeah, I\u2019ve been posting on social media since May, posted a lot of different posts, and I\u2019ve learned a lot about accessibility through that, for people who are blind. For example, like, for people who have low vision, it\u2019s important to make sure the photos are really clear and you don\u2019t have a lot of icons or text on it, which I never really knew about before, I didn\u2019t know it was distracting. If I do include words, making sure it\u2019s high contrast, easy to read, and then I\u2019d also never heard of alt text before. When I first started to write alt text I was pretty bad at it, I probably wrote too long, too many words, and too detailed or not enough detail, but over time I learned how to make it the right alt text and now I can pretty much do it on my own, with Caroline\u2019s help of course. But, yeah, really cool learning how to make social media accessible. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, and that\u2019s see3d.org on the web. What 3D model surprised you the most?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I would say, I guess the most interesting thing that I had never really thought of was we had to print fire for somebody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Fire\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Because that\u2019s one of those things where you can\u2019t touch fire, it\u2019s something that you really can only see. By taking that and putting it into a 3D model, this inanimate- or, I don\u2019t want to say inanimate, this concept so difficult to explain to somebody, that can really just be seen immediately through touch.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, yeah. So much for a request for air! That\u2019s interesting, fire, I didn\u2019t think about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. I like the character models, like when people order their favorite movie characters, something like that, because I know that means a lot to be able to see what their favorite characters look like, so we\u2019ve done the minions, and Yoda, and Hulk, and R2D2, and a bunch of different characters.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, that\u2019s cool. Yeah, and it\u2019s not an expensive type of product, when you really think about it, I believe. Can you tell us how the machine actually works, is there a filament, does it feed different colors in, or how does that work?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
There is all kinds of filament out there, you can get anything from metal filament to even some wood composite filaments. Mainly we print with PLA plastic, and you can buy that in just about any color. You get that for around 15 dollars per kilogram, and that really ends up being one of the only costs after you\u2019ve bought the actual printer. There are small things, like you have to have glue sticks for the bed and things, and of course the electricity that it uses, but as far as actual consumables that\u2019s really the only thing that you have to maintain, as the big cost factor.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And so, once you make the products, then you ship it out to the requester.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, exactly, so this is something Caroline talks about a lot, we\u2019re actually able to mail out all our models for free, free matter, through the mail. I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s only limited to educational materials, but if you\u2019re mailing things to people who are blind-<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, free matter for the blind. Yeah. That works. And anybody can request who\u2019s visually impaired, blind, or teaching, they can go right to the website at see3d.org, I see that there\u2019s a request button, or another button for getting involved, that\u2019s pretty good.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, so all you\u2019ve gotta do is go on there and fill out one form and you\u2019re good to go. Caroline will usually reach out to you via email or something and you know, just network a little bit, but, yeah.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
Yeah. I like the clarity of the website, it\u2019s basically broke up into three, four parts and you just boom, boom, boom. There you go.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
We just did a huge redesign, I think it was about three or four months ago now, I think this new redesign\u2019s a lot more cohesive and really easier for someone who\u2019s blind to understand.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, it didn\u2019t take me long to figure it out. You don\u2019t really need an about page, because it\u2019s all right up front, and then I saw the team here. I\u2019ve got a question for you, now that both of you are involved in a company that actually provides a service to the blind, have you opened your eyes a little bit or now see people who have a cane or a guide dog? I\u2019m just saying this because before I lost some vision, I didn\u2019t really pay attention to anything like that, and now afterwards it\u2019s like I see them all over the place, people- or braille, I notice things like that. Has it changed how you perceive the blind and visually impaired in society?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Most definitely, I mean, everywhere you go I\u2019m noticing the braille now. There\u2019s been a few times where I\u2019ve even seen braille memes and stuff and sent them to Caroline, and three years ago I would have never imagined getting braille memes on my feed, like yeah, to answer your question, yeah, it really has changed our perspective. One of the things Caroline talks about a lot is not treating people like they can\u2019t do things, treating people like they can do things. I think that\u2019s really important because it really changes your perspective and wanting to help these people learn more and help these people do things that they couldn\u2019t, and seeing it as they can do more with the technology applied.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I agree. I heard a quote someone said, she was doing an innovation studio through Ohio State. She said \u201cDisability is just the lack of accessibility. Disability isn\u2019t the disability, that\u2019s the disadvantage, it\u2019s the lack of accessibility.\u201d As long as we can make everything accessible, then there will be no disability. Yeah. I definitely have started to notice things more, like what you were say about seeing memes online, if I see something like that, I definitely take it more into account than I would have before.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, yeah. Speaking of 3D printing, I just saw an article a couple weeks ago which made me think of See 3D, and that\u2019s when I sent the message out to you guys. A 3D printer, but it\u2019s for concrete, and they\u2019re building multi-complex houses with it. So it\u2019s a machine, the filament is concrete, like you can just imagine how it goes, and I was like, wow. That\u2019s huge. Do not bring this indoors.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, that\u2019s been a huge thing lately. I actually saw that too, and it\u2019s really cool because if we\u2019re able to bring that to market and bring that to scale, there could be a lot of positive benefits for society. I mean, look at some of the housing issues, I mean not even just in America but in other, lesser developed countries, these are really problems that we can actually start to address using technology like this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah. Caroline Karbowski the CEO, welcome, Caroline, how are you doing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:
I\u2019m doing well, thanks so much for inviting me on the call!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You bet, and thank you for what you\u2019re doing. A couple years ago we talked when castle was just a word, and you were explaining snowflakes and making 3D images and making them available to people who were curious about putting imagery to just words that they knew. It seems like you\u2019ve got a whole team now, so good for you on making this grow and become bigger and more available to people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:
I had been 3D printing models and giving them to people who were blind to allow them to understand their world better.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And this started out as a project for your Tech Olympics in high school. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes. I worked on an idea, we could have multiple students from many different schools 3D print models and then mail them, so it would be a large community, so not just me printing, but having kids at other schools-<\/p>\n\n\n\n
-thank you. Yes, ever since the Blind Abilities podcast more people started contacting us and from there we\u2019ve just kept on going. [Unintelligible] to see where we\u2019ve come since the last podcast.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I think one of the main things that caught my attention is someone wanted a 3D image of the Walt Disney castle. She never knew what a castle was, because it was just a word, you know, adding an image through touch to a word and making that connection, it just makes you want to print up more and more 3D images for people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:
I was talking about it with my friends last night, about 3D printing, and they were like, what if in the future you can order something online and then have it 3D print inside of your house, like what if that could be where 3D printing goes in the future?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, wow. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019d be pretty cool. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And that\u2019s kind of essentially what we\u2019re doing right now, with the cloud 3D printing softwares that are out there. We use a website called Polar3D, which essentially allows you to just upload it online, and then it does just get shot to a printer somewhere, and you can queue up JAWS and things like that, it\u2019s really powerful because we\u2019re actually able to have the blind students use their screen readers and things like that, and operate that website.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And then they can print that model and send it to a printer where we\u2019re at, especially with COVID the students are at home, and we\u2019re with the printers, so if they can click the print button on their computer and print the model where we are, it\u2019s not only accessible for the blind, it\u2019s accessible with COVID, and then we can mail the models just like how the students are mailed their school supplies. It\u2019s just really exciting, because we\u2019re getting to do two great things, we\u2019re making it accessible and we\u2019re able to do it during COVID.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
That\u2019s great. Yeah, I was telling your team here, Garrett and Kara, that I was really impressed when I met you at the NFB convention, you saw my t-shirt and came up to me and introduced yourself, and it was like wow, what are you doing here, I know what you\u2019re doing here, but your passion for what you do is unmatched by so many that are doing something like this. You\u2019re sighted yourself, but your experience with your friend led you into this path, where have you grown to since then?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:
Yes, so now we\u2019re a 501c3 nonprofit, we\u2019ve distributed over 900 models since 2017, we\u2019ve sent them to 15 states, four countries, and 12 different organizations. We\u2019ve also connected with people in 11 countries, we\u2019ve also worked with- people have given us grants, and funding, we now also have 14 other people in our internal See 3D network, it\u2019s now no longer just me, my family, and Emily, I don\u2019t even think I knew Garrett at the time, for the first Blind Abilities podcast, and now we have 14 others also working with us, we have an intern team. Our volunteer team has grown as well, we\u2019ve been able to connect four volunteers in Slack and been able to connect with them that way, and it\u2019s been more organized than the email system we had before. We also have co-led the Ohio State School for the Blind model club, where we\u2019re now having students being able to print themselves with screen readers, we\u2019ve gone to multiple presentations, I was at CSUN in the spring. It just has been very exciting to be able to connect with people and spread our ideas, going to more conferences, and raising awareness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s great. So say someone is interested, they find out about the company and they want to know what an igloo looks like. I see on the website that it\u2019s easy enough to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:
It actually is fed directly into our Slack channel, where we actually have a command where it\u2019ll allow us to list out every model request and mark them as complete. We\u2019re able to then pass that down to our design and print channels that we also have on Slack, where we can pass that onto volunteers, or if it\u2019s say smaller, more unique models then we\u2019ll usually do it on our home printers to save the extra shipping costs. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The initial request is done through our website, at see3d.org, and people can fill out a form and answers from the form go to the Slack channel.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So anybody that requests something, they just start the chain in motion and boom, there it goes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
That\u2019s pretty cool. That\u2019s efficiency, good job. How can people get involved to help out See 3D?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, they can fill out a form on our website for- one means interest in joining the Slack channel, just 3D print existing models, or design new models, or do both. And when you fill out the interest form on our website, we\u2019ll then send you the link to our Slack channel, and then you can join and talk on there, Slack\u2019s available as an app on a phone, a tablet, or on the computer, and it is accessible. We then want to invite people who know 3D printing, knew people with 3D printing. We\u2019re also hoping that we can have more blind volunteers as 3D printers become more accessible.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
What I\u2019m hearing here is you\u2019re developing a network of entities that have 3D printers that want to participate in the distribution and providing 3D models for people who are blind.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Exactly. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And to kind of expand on your question about getting involved, it\u2019s not necessarily limited to 3D printing and 3D modelling as well. Kara\u2019s a perfect example of that, she\u2019s on our marketing team, but our latest initiative actually has been- we\u2019ve been trying to standardize our models into a set of kits where we can provide descriptions with the kits and kind of formalize the whole process, so we can kind of provide a theme. So for example, right now on our website we have two kits posted, we have an anatomy kit up there, and we have a United States landmarks kit. We were able to bring in volunteers to help us create those learning plans. That\u2019s essentially something anybody can do, that\u2019s writing out descriptions of a model. Obviously there\u2019s a little extra lingo they need to know, but we can kind of edit things to what they need to be and just kind of use that as a starting point essentially if that makes sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, I saw the anatomy kit, and I just kind of squeamished, just a little bit, I was like hmm. But that\u2019s really cool, because how else are you gonna find that out? Interesting stuff. I was talking to Garrett and Kara earlier, and they were talking about some of the interesting 3D models that have been made \u2013 Caroline, what is one of the most interesting models that you\u2019ve seen made?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, the box of mimic from Dungeons and Dragons was I think the funniest one. It\u2019s like a treasure chest with arms and legs coming out of it, I always thought that was funny. I guess any of the astronomy ones, it\u2019s always interesting to see the Hubble telescope, or the James Webb space telescope, the ISS, I really like those models from NASA, because they are accurate and they print well, things like the Curiosity Rover. They\u2019re so intricate, and I think a lot of times when we think of a telescope we think like a tube. These telescopes that are in space are much more exciting than just a tube, so sometimes people are like wow, I never thought of what the Hubble space telescope looks like, and then seeing how diverse these structures are makes people think oh, what could I design, it\u2019s a lot of excitement. Also, the DNA model that breaks apart that you can build, I find that really exciting, because I\u2019m a biology and chemistry major, and I didn\u2019t understand DNA until I really interacted with the model, and when you\u2019re building it you can understand how it works. Most people when they touch the DNA model get excited and understand how it works, so I like models that make people start thinking and getting excited about new models.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
You\u2019re talking about the Rover that they sent to Mars?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes! So there\u2019s a model of the Curiosity Rover that NASA\u2019s posted, the wheels even rotate because they\u2019re a separate piece.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, wow! We\u2019re talking toys now.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So tell me a little bit more about the Ohio State School for the Blind club, what do they do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, so when Garrett and I were both first year students and OSU, OSSB contacted us asking if we could help with their 3D model club, because they had 3D printers but they weren\u2019t sure how to work them. Garrett and I went every week and we printed models that are smaller versions of the larger models they had at OSSB. They actually have a collection of models made during the Great Depression with the WPA program, and these are models like the Taj Mahal, the Ohio Capital Building, Leaning Tower of Pisa, Great Pyramids, and these models are very old and they\u2019re trying to refurbish them, they\u2019re also very large and there\u2019s only one copy, so we can make models, each kid can have their own copy, even after they graduate they can have a copy, and they can also maybe use the smaller model to get the big picture and then go to the big model for the detail. So we were just learning how to work the 3D printers with the students, and then now once those models are printed, some teachers had ideas for printing new models, the students also had ideas, so the second year was more requests we were doing. And now since the students are online, we\u2019re printing again student and teacher requests but the students look for the models online, load it to Polar3D using screen readers, and then they are printed to the printers at the club moderators\u2019 houses, and then we mail them to the students. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
So what you\u2019re saying is you\u2019ve made 3D printers accessible to the blind.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, and maybe not at first 100% accessible, but we have found ways to make them accessible. Garrett\u2019s worked a lot on that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, so that\u2019s the whole thing with Polar3D that I was talking about. That is the most accessible slicing software that we\u2019ve found so far. The slicing software is actually what I was talking about earlier, that turns the models into printer code. That\u2019s one of the solutions, also there\u2019s an app you can get called Aira, I don\u2019t know how familiar everybody on the podcast is with that, but it essentially allows somebody to be the eyes for you, and so we\u2019ve had the students use that to operate the printers when, say, we\u2019re short on people that go around, and have somebody be their eyes for them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
That\u2019s probably pretty exciting for Aira agents, who all of a sudden get to build a Walt Disney castle or something. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Right, and it\u2019s exciting to be- the Aira agent has described the model is working or is it falling apart as it\u2019s printing, because you can\u2019t touch it because it\u2019s hot. You can pause the print and then see if it\u2019s okay, but if you can do it without pausing it\u2019s faster. Having an accessible slicer also allows students to find out when the printer\u2019s being heated. They were so excited hearing online that the printer was going to 200 degrees Celsius, and instead of just saying oh, the printer\u2019s hot, they now knew the exact temperature and they could track when the printer was heating up or when it was cooling down. Like the student realized the temperature was decreasing, and then we realized that the printer had been turned off, and we didn\u2019t know that. That\u2019s just some of the exciting discoveries we\u2019ve been able to have because the printers have been more accessible with the online sites or with Polar3D.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Well, I think that\u2019s really cool because not only are you providing a service that someone could actually get a model, a 3D model, but you\u2019re actually helping people access the printers themselves. That\u2019s really cool. Making an impact.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
So, you earlier had me explain 3D printing. I\u2019d like to have Caroline give that because she has a really good explanation that\u2019s probably better than mine. I tried to use some of her analogies, but I couldn\u2019t remember all of them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
He even tried to imitate your voice, Caroline.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh my gosh!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Go ahead.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sure, so 3D printing is an additive process, so you start at the bottom, and you add up to the top of the model. 3D printing prints with plastic, it\u2019s called filament, and it\u2019s about the thickness of pasta. There\u2019s actually different thicknesses that you can have, depending on what your printer can take. You thread the filament that is wound up in a spool kind of like thread, you thread it through the printer, through the extruder, which is the top, it\u2019s a hot metal end. It\u2019s like a hot glue gun, it\u2019s like putting hot glue inside a hot glue gun, and then the filament extrudes out of the printer and is melted and the printhead then touches the bottom build plates, usually a square or a rectangle. The printhead moves and it draws the outline of the shape, and then fills the shape in, so if you\u2019re making a cone, kind of like an upside-down ice cream cone, it would first draw a circle and fill the circle in, and then the printer goes up a little bit and draws a smaller circle and goes up and draws a smaller circle until you get to the top, where it\u2019s just a point. The filament is melted when it comes out, but once it\u2019s put down it hardens really quickly, that\u2019s how you\u2019re able to add another layer on top.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
Oh, wow. Yeah, I\u2019ve experienced a glue gun, I do wood working but I use a glue gun once in a while, and that stuff is hot, so that\u2019s good information to know. Hot and sticky. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
I really like the website, it\u2019s really fluid, it\u2019s right up front, I got all the information right there, and it was really good to be able to know that people can request just by clicking on that, as you mentioned, people can get involved in it, and people can help support. Talk about supporting See 3D.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sure, so of course one way to support is being involved with the actual printing, and designing. You can also donate via our PayPal link now, we no longer use the GoFundMe page that we used to have during the first podcast. You can also braille, we send braille address labels so if you have an embosser or a brailler and you want to braille address labels or some of the labels for models like the USA map, we always have the stand where we put the postal code, so for Ohio you just put OH on the state, so if someone could just print out a sheet with all the state postal codes and then mail it to us, we can then cut it out and put it on the model, or even braille transcribing for our learning plans, we send you a Word doc and then you can send us the BRF, which then we can put on our website and also send to our embossers, or if you have an embosser you can braille things. You can pack material if you\u2019re in the area, we can use boxes that we can mail out for packaging materials and filament, if you have filament that you aren\u2019t using, you could either give it to us or if you have a printer and want to print yourself you could do that, especially for filament colors that maybe you don\u2019t need anymore, or as we work with some 3D printing companies finding unsellable filament, perhaps their filament was maybe the slightly wrong color, so we\u2019ve been able to use that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:
I think it\u2019s really neat. I saw a bunch of sponsors and donators on your page. It seems like since we did the last podcast, you really have grown your network substantially. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yes, so the goal of See 3D is to connect people with 3D printing or raising awareness about blindness, and we use 3D printing as our gateway, it\u2019s our tool, because there\u2019s some people that have done 3D printing that haven\u2019t heard about blindness or heard about braille, and there\u2019s people who are blind that haven\u2019t heard about 3D printing, so it\u2019s a great connector for all of us, and we use 3D printing for our tool to be a common bond and connect with each other, and from there, things can then branch out and replicate and be sustainable. There\u2019s been three designers now that are thinking, oh, now the models I design could be useful for the blind, so I\u2019m gonna include an alt text description of my model on thingoverse, or I\u2019m going to make this part of the model stronger so it won\u2019t break when it\u2019s touched. Having that extra layer of thinking and mindset really just helps out in the future.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, I think that\u2019s great. When you said that, I didn\u2019t even think about that, because some things may be a little bit delicate, like a sword or something, you can make the sword just a little thicker. So you\u2019re able to edit that, your team that you have, the network and all the designers and everything, boom, they just create it, make it more useful, more useable.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Exactly. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If someone wanted to get ahold of you, how do they do that?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Our website is see3d.org, that\u2019s S-E-E, the number 3, D, dot org. And our email is info@see3d.org, just I-N-F-O@see3d.org. We also have a contact form on our website, the model request form is on the website, we also have social media.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara, Garrett, Caroline, I want to thank you all for coming onto Blind Abilities and talking about See 3D, you can find them at see3d.org, and I think it\u2019s a great thing you\u2019re doing, keep up the good work, and we\u2019re gonna try and get the word out to everybody.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Caroline:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Thank you!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Garrett:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Thanks for having us!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Yeah, thanks so much!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
We\u2019d like to thank Caroline Karbowski and her team for joining Jeff for this follow-up interview. For more information on their efforts, check out their website at www.see3d.org, and of course, check out all of their social media links. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
Kara:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Our Instagram is see, S-E-E, dot 3D, and our Twitter is S-E-E3Dprinting, that\u2019s the handle for that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Pete:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
And from all of us here at Blind Abilities, through these challenging times, to you, your family, and friends, stay well, stay informed, and stay strong. Thank you so much for listening, and have a great day. <\/p>\n\n\n\n
[Music] [Transition noise] -When we share<\/p>\n\n\n\n
-What we see<\/p>\n\n\n\n
-Through each other’s eyes\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n
[Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]<\/p>\n\n\n\n
…We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Jeff:<\/p>\n\n\n\n
For more podcasts with a blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that\u2019s two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com. Thanks for listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
If you reside in Minnesota, and you would like to know more about Transition Services from State Services contact Transition Coordinator Sheila Koenig by email<\/a> or contact her via phone at 651-539-2361.<\/p>\n\n\n\n You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities<\/a> Check out the Blind Abilities Community<\/a>on Facebook, the Blind Abilities Page<\/a>, and the Career Resources for the Blind and Visually Impaired<\/a> group<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" Full Transcript Caroline: 3D printing is an additive process. Garrett: Plastic being heated up \u2013 think, like, a hot glue gun. Caroline: It\u2019s like a hot glue gun. Garrett: The hot glue gun will move around on a bed where it will lay down, layer by layer, an object. Caroline: 3D printing prints with plastic, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":8,"parent":0,"menu_order":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"footnotes":""},"class_list":["post-6435","page","type-page","status-publish","has-post-thumbnail","hentry"],"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/P6rcRg-1FN","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":7227,"url":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/?page_id=7227","url_meta":{"origin":6435,"position":0},"title":"Meet Micheal Hudson – Director of the Museum for the American Printing House for the Blind. Learn about the history and what is new and upcoming for the museum renovations and tours.","author":"Blind Abilities Team","date":"March 9, 2022","format":false,"excerpt":"Full Transcript Pete: Coming up on Blind Abilities today\u2026 Michael: That doesn\u2019t mean that you still don\u2019t get a chill down your spine when you\u2019re in the presence of the Liberty Bell. You\u2019ve just got to figure out a way to make it possible for everybody to have that chill\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"BlindAbilities Logo A black square with white initials, B A.","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=700%2C400&ssl=1 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1050%2C600&ssl=1 3x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1400%2C800&ssl=1 4x"},"classes":[]},{"id":5196,"url":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/?page_id=5196","url_meta":{"origin":6435,"position":1},"title":"APH American Printing House: Huge Partnerships Bringing the Community New and Innovative Products. Introducing CodeJumper, the BrailleBuzz, ColorStar and More! #NFB19","author":"Blind Abilities Team","date":"July 16, 2019","format":false,"excerpt":"Full Transcript Jeff Thompson:Welcome to Blind Abilities. I'm Jeff Thompson. While attending the National Federation of the Blind Convention 2019 in Las Vegas, Nevada, I came across the American Printing House table, that's APH, and Dave Wilkinson was there showing some of their brand new innovative products designed by Microsoft,\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"BlindAbilities Logo A black square with white initials, B A.","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=700%2C400&ssl=1 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1050%2C600&ssl=1 3x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1400%2C800&ssl=1 4x"},"classes":[]},{"id":7213,"url":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/?page_id=7213","url_meta":{"origin":6435,"position":2},"title":"With over 40 years of narrating Talking Books at the American Printing House for the Blind (APH), Ray Foushee is still turning the pages.","author":"Blind Abilities Team","date":"March 4, 2022","format":false,"excerpt":"Full Transcript: Ray: I just started doing it a couple of hours a week, and then the people of the station graciously said, well you can have some more time off to go do that. So I managed to get in two or three sessions a week and now I'm\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"BlindAbilities Logo A black square with white initials, B A.","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=700%2C400&ssl=1 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1050%2C600&ssl=1 3x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1400%2C800&ssl=1 4x"},"classes":[]},{"id":5932,"url":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/?page_id=5932","url_meta":{"origin":6435,"position":3},"title":"American Printing House is Keeping Braille at Your Fingertips! Introducing the Mantis Q40 and the Chameleon 20. A Conversation with APH Head of Global Innovation, Greg Stilson.","author":"Blind Abilities Team","date":"June 3, 2020","format":false,"excerpt":"Full Transcript Greg: Our business is understanding student workflows, understanding teachers, understanding needs of the students and being able to market and to train teachers and be a resource, right? That's where our foundation is. Jeff: Please welcome, from American Printing House, Head of Global Innovation, Greg Stilson. Greg: It\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"BlindAbilities Logo A black square with white initials, B A.","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=700%2C400&ssl=1 2x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1050%2C600&ssl=1 3x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/02\/Blind-Abilities-Logo.jpg?resize=1400%2C800&ssl=1 4x"},"classes":[]},{"id":4626,"url":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/?page_id=4626","url_meta":{"origin":6435,"position":4},"title":"myTrueSound Just Released Gold Gun! An Audio Game for the BVI Community. And Special Guest, Jesse Anderson from the YouTube Channel, Illegally Sighted.","author":"Blind Abilities Team","date":"March 5, 2019","format":false,"excerpt":"Full Transcript Mikko Herranen:And the game is about Saran guy who used to be a policeman before he got into an accident and got blind. Jesse Anderson:Whether you're dealing with visuals or audio only or virtual reality, whatever it happens to be, that's the cool thing, is gaming has becomes\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":7271,"url":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/?page_id=7271","url_meta":{"origin":6435,"position":5},"title":"CareerConnect:\u00a0You\u2019ll Get Connected, You will Learn, You\u2019ll Engage, You\u2019ll Grow – Resources for Navigating the Transition from High School to College and the Workplace.","author":"Blind Abilities Team","date":"April 1, 2022","format":false,"excerpt":"FULL TRANSCRIPT Jeff: As a blind, visually impaired student transitioning from high school to college to the workplace, there's no better resource than what you'll find at the American Printing House\u2019s CareerConnect.\u00a0The APH ConnectCenter includes FamilyConnect, CareerConnect, of which we will be talking about today, and VisionAware \u2013 a hub\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"APH LOGO - THE LETTERS ARE ALL CAPS -APH.","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/blindabilities.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/04\/APHLogo.png?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]}],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/6435","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=6435"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/6435\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":6436,"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/pages\/6435\/revisions\/6436"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/8"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/blindabilities.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=6435"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}Contact:<\/strong><\/h3>\n\n\n\n
On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com<\/a>
Send us an email<\/a>
Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store<\/a>and Google Play Store<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n