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Learning the Skill of Self-Advocacy: Meet PACER Center’s Transition and Employment Specialist Erika Theiler
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PACER Center – Champions for Children with Disabilities:
A Visit with National Parents Center on Transition and Employment Specialist Erika Theiler
In partnership with State Services for the Blind of Minnesota we are proud to present, PACER Center – Champions for Children with Disabilities:
A Visit with National Parents Center on Transition and Employment Specialist Erika Theiler
Erika sits down with Jeff Thompson of Blind Abilities in the fourth of a series of podcasts in partnership with PACER Center and State Services for the Blind. You can find the entire PACER Center series here.
Erika talks about the importance of self-advocacy, soft-skills, the family’s role in building a young adults advocacy skills and the importance of knowing your rights as a person with a disability.
Join Erika Theiler and Jeff Thompson of Blind Abilities for this in-depth conversation about Self-Advocacy in Transition and Employment.
From the PACER Center web site:
Postsecondary education is an exciting opportunity for all youth, including those with disabilities. Going to college today can mean attending a 4-year college or university, a 2-year community college, or a technical institute or trade school. It can mean studying full-time or part-time, or living at school or commuting from home. Learning and earning go hand-in-hand. The more years of schooling your youth completes, the higher his or her income is likely to be. The wide variety of postsecondary educational programs currently available for youth makes exploring options with your son or daughter an exciting process.
Although postsecondary students with disabilities are entitled to certain protections, the process for accessing accommodations is much different than in high school. Youth must take a more active role in knowing their rights and advocating for needed supports. This means they must know about their disability and the accommodations they need to be successful. Families play an important role in helping their young adults learn self-advocacy skills, as well as their rights as a person with a disability.
You can watch the Great Schools video of Nasina:
Kids with Character: Grit“Grit is having the courage to do your impossible or to do what you think is hard and to do it anyway,” says Nasina, a young woman with incredible grit. Her story will awe and inspire you.
Be sure to check out the entire PACER Center Series at www.BlindAbilities.com
PACER Center enhances the quality of life and expands opportunities for children, youth, and young adults with all disabilities and their families so each person can reach his or her highest potential. PACER operates on the principles of parents helping parents, supporting families, promoting a safe environment for all children, and working in collaboration with others.
With assistance to individual families, workshops, materials for parents and professionals, and leadership in securing a free and appropriate public education for all children, PACER’s work affects and encourages families in Minnesota and across the nation.
You can find out more about PACER Center on the web at www.Pacer.org
You can reach the National Parent’s Center on Transition and Employment on the web at www.PACER.org/Transition
You can reach pACER Center by phone at 952-838-9000
You can find out more about State Services for the Blind on the web at
And by calling 651-539-2300
Live Learn Work and Play
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Full Transcript:
Learning the Skill of Self-Advocacy: Meet PACER Center’s Transition and Employment Specialist Erika Theiler
Erica Theiler:
Self advocacy really means speaking up for yourself, and asking for what you need.
Jeff Thompson:
State Services for the Blind of Minnesota presents PACER Center, champions for children with disabilities.
Erica Theiler:
Especially right at senior year of high school, or after high school, where your young adult will have to know how to advocate for themselves too.
Jeff Thompson:
We will be talking to Erica Theiler, transition and employment specialist at PACER Center.
Erica Theiler:
I would encourage the participants of the team meeting to talk directly to the student, rather than asking the parent what they think the student needs or wants.
Jeff Thompson:
Helping parents, families, and young adults transition from high school into adult service systems.
Erica Theiler:
And assertive communication is really having the posture, and the confidence, and saying what you need in a way that respects others, but also respects yourself.
Jeff Thompson:
And you can find out more about National Parent Center on transition and employment on the web at www.PACER.org/transition.
Erica Theiler:
Just give us a call. The main PACER number, which is 952-838-9000, and we can help you brainstorm and problem solve whatever is happening or what questions that you have.
Jeff Thompson:
Produced by Blind Abilities in part with State Services for the Blind Minnesota. Live, learn, work, and play. We hope you enjoy.
Jeff Thompson:
Welcome to Blind Abilities, I’m Jeff Thompson, and I’m at the PACER Center in Bloomington, Minnesota, and I’m talking to Erica Theiler. And she is the transition and employment specialist here at PACER. How you doing?
Erica Theiler:
Hi, I’m good this morning, thank you.
Jeff Thompson:
Can you give us a little overview on PACER and your department?
Erica Theiler:
Sure. Well PACER was founded back in 1977, and really it’s all about parents helping parents support individuals with disabilities. It started with just children with disabilities, but we’ve really grown to support young adults with disabilities as well. My department is called the National Parent Center on Transition and Employment. And it was founded in 2014. And our goal is really helping parents, and families, and young adults transition from high school to the adult service system. So how do you get job supports for people with disabilities? Or how do you access accommodations in college, or live independently, whether it’s housing, or recreation and leisure? Our focus is giving that one on one assistance and workshops, but really about what happens after high school, and how things change.
Nasna:
So, I woke up and got myself together and went to school, and I became a scholar, not just a student.
Jeff Thompson:
That’s the voice of Nasna a young woman with determination, perseverance, what she calls grit.
Jeff Thompson:
One of the important skills that I know is when you’re transitioning from high school to college, and into later on in life, is self advocacy. Can you talk about self advocacy?
Erica Theiler:
Sure, yeah. Self advocacy really means speaking up for yourself, and asking for what you need. In order to do that effectively though includes knowing your rights, and being able to explain your disability, knowing about your disability and how to talk about it with other people, whether it’s an employer, or a professor at college, or somebody in the community to access the supports that you need.
Jeff Thompson:
Now advocacy, usually when there’s a disability, or someone that’s struggling with certain aspects of their education and stuff. It’s usually the parents that notice this and so they are their first advocate.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, they’re their first advocate, and their lifelong advocate, really. You know, when I have a big decision in my life I still call my mom. I still ask her for some help, and I ask my dad for help when it comes to buying a car, or big decisions in my life, I rely on my parents. And I think that’s good for families to know that we’re not expecting that role to ever go away as a parent, you will always be the best advocate for your young adult, or your teen, or your adult child.
Erica Theiler:
But there is kind of this period where, especially right at senior year of high school, or after high school, where your young adult will have to know how to advocate for themselves, too.
Jeff Thompson:
And that includes like making sure that you have the right equipment, the right accessibility tools for success, and possibly taking the right courses in school, so you have to be able to be there for yourself, because whether you’re doing an IPE or IEP, or anything like that, it comes down to you advocating for yourself.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, and I really encourage parents to start that process of teaching their child how to advocate for themselves really early. So when I was a teacher, I was a special education teacher for six years, and when I was a teacher I would include self advocacy goals in the IEP as early as fifth or sixth grade. In partnership with the school, we could start teaching the child how to advocate for themselves, how to ask for what they want as far as accommodations, or talk about their goals for the future, so then we can build a really good IEP that supports them moving forward.
Erica Theiler:
And fifth and sixth grade seems really early, but that’s when … you know, the earlier you start the better, and that’s when students are starting to formulate their really solid ideas of what they want to do in the future, and we can really encourage them to be their own individual person, and direct their own lives.
Nasna:
Anything in my way, I have tried to move it. There’s a second where I have a little meltdown, like, oh my goodness, I can’t do this, and I panic a little bit internally. But then that lasts for like 10 seconds, and I’m back on it. I appreciate school, and I love the power of learning.
Jeff Thompson:
I did some teaching myself, and I remember some kids would come into the training center, and it seems like the umbilical cord was cut right at the door where they have all the skills in the world to do a bunch of different things, mostly technology, or braille reading, they’re great at that, but they just haven’t been able to make a sandwich, do other things that the parents kind of did for them. And it actually comes into what decisions are made, and them to make decisions, and to learn to know what skills they should get. And I think advocacy is one of those ones that, if you have that, the rest will follow.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, and another thing that parents can do in the community to help build that advocacy skill is just allowing your young adult, or your child, to speak up at a restaurant, and order what they want, or speak up when they’re asking for a job application for their first job. Or helping them to have the skills to tell a coach about their disability, and maybe what accommodations they would need on the sporting team, or for whatever event is coming up. So just really supporting their young adult, and being their own voice, and helping them to ask for what they need at an early age when there’s still those supports in place, rather than when they’re … after they graduate from high school. A lot of times they’re on their own when it comes … they’re doing these requests on their own, rather than with the support of a parent or a teacher by their side.
Erica Theiler:
So giving them as much practice as possible is really helpful.
Jeff Thompson:
You bring up a great point. Like at a restaurant, there’s so many times, and there’s a saying in England that I learned, it’s called, “Does she want sugar?” And it’s when you ask for tea, and they bring you the tea, and they turn to the person across the table and say, “Does she want sugar?” And that’s one of those things that even at cash registers, that other thing, you pay for it and they hand the other person the receipt, or something, to speak up. Like you said, once you leave high school, you don’t have all that structure. You don’t have the TBI at your side, you can’t bring them with you because once you go to college there’s a whole different system, and that’s where you have to start knowing what you want, and asking for what you want.
Erica Theiler:
Exactly, and thank you for saying that,
Jeff. And one thing that I did as a teacher as well, is at IEP team meetings, when I could get a student to participate or to come to a meeting, which sometimes was uncomfortable for them, but I would encourage the participants of the team meeting, whether it’s teachers, or an administrator, or the parents, to talk directly to the student. And say, “What would you like your goals to be for this next school year? Or what kind of classes do you want to take? Or what accommodations do you think that you need?” Rather than asking the parent what they think the student needs or wants.
Erica Theiler:
Of course we want the parent input, and we need that parent input because they know their young adult and their child best, but I think encouraging students to see themselves as their own voice, and see themselves as their own advocate as early as possible is really helpful.
Nasna:
Grit is having courage to do your impossible. Or to do what you think is hard, and do it anyway, even if it’s not the most pleasant thing going through.
Erica Theiler:
And like you said, you know, when you get to college, there’s not an IEP team meeting anymore. You have to be the one to go into the disability services office and say, “Hey, I need some accommodations, because I have a disability, and this is what works for me in the past, let’s talk about this, let’s work on what classes that I have, and how I can access the program of study.”
Erica Theiler:
A lot of colleges, they won’t directly with the parent, they only work directly with the student. And even if the student signs a waiver saying that the college can talk to a parent, the colleges don’t have to. They’re going to work mostly with the student directly. And that’s the same with an employer. And employer’s going to work directly with their employee, rather than going through a parent or a guardian. So just really preparing your child, your young adult, your youth, the student, if you’re a teacher, preparing the student for that reality after high school is really important.
Jeff Thompson:
And especially you have individual teachers along the way while you’re in college, you have to be able to talk to them, and ask them or tell them what works for you. I like how you put that, what works for you, because what works for the teacher they’ve done or for the school may not be what … if you’re a braille reader, and they want to have you use a reader, actual person read it to you, maybe the braille’s the best one for you. So you can educate the teachers, you can educate the disability services office, and then like you said, you can’t bring them to the workplace. So you advocating for getting the stuff that works well for you is actually you know best, that’s going to work.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, and I like that, I haven’t heard of it that way, but how you said you have to be the one to educate others. So you, as the self advocate, need to be able to know how to talk about your disability, talk about what works for you in order to educate the people around you that are there to provide the supports. Whether that’s a professor in college, a disability services office, or your employer, somebody in the community, the list kind of goes on and on, but being able to talk about your disability succinctly, and in a way that tells others what you need as far as accommodations, and deciding how much you want to disclose is really important, and something that should be practiced early and often.
Jeff Thompson:
Yeah, and you’re right, those parents have a lot of opportunity to give them that. Whether it’s responsibilities for taking out the garbage or something like that. And they might say … I don’t want to use the word argue, or I don’t think when someone is self advocating that they’re a pain, I think it’s putting value on themself and their needs, and what they need to succeed.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah. And one thing that I did as a teacher in my classroom was encourage what are called soft skills. Soft skills are things like communication skills, critical thinking, leadership, teamwork, having a good work ethic. And employers report, there’s some data out there, that they want those skills more than technical skills on the job. So in the classroom, we would encourage … I would plan lessons around communication, or lessons around teamwork. And build in the academic skills as well, but also be focusing on these extra soft skills that come into play that are important, not just to get your diploma, but to be an individual in the workforce, and be an individual in college, and to be a community member.
Jeff Thompson:
Exactly. And the employment component that you’re talking about, that, like you said, it may not be all the technical skills that they’re looking for, they’re actually looking for team players. They’re looking for people who think out of the box, and when you have a disability you’ve been doing that for quite a while. So a lot of these skills, the soft skills that you’re talking about, the stuff that we’re advocating for people to get involved in to use, actually is something that employers don’t even realize they’re looking for. The skills that you develop through your challenges as you venture through the transition process.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, and I think I included those soft skills in my day to day teaching, and I think that parents have the opportunity to include those soft skills in their home, like you said, with chores, or with roles in … very defined roles and responsibilities, if a youth with a disability has a sibling, and then they have to figure out, if they have to problem solve together if they don’t … if they both don’t want to do the same thing that day, if one of them wants to go to the pool and one of them wants to go to Valley Fair, having them be the ones to problem solve together rather than the parent making the decision. I’m not a parent, I’m one of the few people at PACER that’s not a parent yet, so I can’t say I don’t know how easy that is to let your children problem solve. But, I think that that would be something that could be a good learning moment, or learning opportunity for the kids.
Jeff Thompson:
Exactly. Just like labeling the microwave. Mom may not want something that covers up the numbers, it might be clear, or it might be a bump above, or dad might not want this, so that’s a point for you to say … or your voice. I think self advocacy is just basically putting value behind your voice, your input into the conversation.
Erica Theiler:
And then one thing that goes along with sharing your voice is being confident. So I’ve done some self advocacy lessons back when I was a teacher, but also in the past year here at PACER, and one thing that we talk about with students in the 18 to 21 programs is something called assertive communication, and being really confident in talking about yourself, talking about what you need. When I say assertive communication, there’s passive communication, assertive communication, and aggressive communication. And assertive communication is really having the posture, and the confidence, and saying what you need in a way that respects others, but also respects yourself. And shares that you know what you need, you know what you have a right to, and you’re willing to work with others in order to make that happen.
Jeff Thompson:
I notice when you said assertive we both kind of sat up just a little bit. We got our posture going.
Erica Theiler:
And when I taught that lesson about those types of assertive communications, we actually do a body posture activity, where I have the students sit up. And I have them put their shoulders back, and you know, you kind of get into that … you speak better when you’re in that posture, and you express yourself better in that posture. Whereas we would also have the students show me what passive communication looked like, and they would have their head down on the table, and be really sleepy. And then we’d also practice aggressive communication, and how standing over top of somebody, or having that mean look on your face, whatever it may be. We’d do some role playing activities, and to really show them that assertive and confident communication is going to get you the supports that you need and get your point across in a respectful way to yourself and others.
Jeff Thompson:
Yeah. And parents have that great opportunity to start that early, because the sooner that someone begins to realize they have a voice and their voice is heard, and they get that experience, it just carries on for every level of stage of life that’s ahead of them.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah. And these skills that we’re talking about today, they transfer and they develop throughout life. They’re not going to go away, they’re not going to be forgotten. If you continue to use them, and you continue to practice in the community, you’re going to continue to have those skills.
Erica Theiler:
You know, I think about I was a math teacher for a while, and teaching geometry for example, or the Pythagorean theorem, or different math skills, you know, if you don’t … you’ll always kind of remember, okay, I know kind of how to do that, I know it has to do with triangles, or I know it has to do with algebra, or solving a problem, but if you don’t use it, then sometimes you learn that skill in order to get your diploma, and then you kind of forget about it. Whereas self advocacy skills, or these soft skills, like leadership and having a positive attitude, and assertive communication, that can really transfer to all aspects of life.
Jeff Thompson:
Lifelong skills.
Erica Theiler:
Exactly.
Nasna:
You can push yourself to achieve that A plus in, you know, pre-calculus, or to get an A in trigonometry, you can do that.
Erica Theiler:
So another thing when I was working with students in high school, high school aged students with disabilities, we did a lot of goal setting activities. And what I realized is that some students could set a goal for their day, and that was it. They could set a goal I need to get through the day by staying focused, or I need to get this piece of homework done today. Whereas other people could really set a goal for long term, they could set a goal for 10 years from now, what they would like to do.
Erica Theiler:
And I realized when I’m teaching them some of these skills for the future, I really needed to individualize the skills based on what their goals were. So what I mean is the student that could only kind of see into the future for the day, I would talk to them about, okay, how are you going to advocate for yourself to get the accommodation that you need on this assignment in order to get it done today? Or how are you going to share your voice in a classroom when you’re feeling overwhelmed in order to get through the day? If they had some sort of anxiety disorder, anxiety difficulties in getting through a certain class. I would have students that science was a common one that was difficult for them to get through because it was a technical class, and they have anxiety in this class. So we would talk about how they would advocate for themselves when they were feeling overwhelmed. So those skills I built into their one day.
Erica Theiler:
Whereas I had some students who could think five, 10 years down the road. And they wanted to be an English teacher, or they wanted to go to … I had one student that wanted to be a grant writer for a nonprofit. So we talked about how can you learn the skills that you need to get that degree in college, how can you apply to that college, ask for those services that you need, get that degree. And then what are you going to do in order to get that specific job that you want? So knowing the students, and if you’re a parent, knowing your child and their goal setting abilities, can help you develop these advocacy skills, or these communication skills, these teamwork skills. You can really base it on their goals for the future, whether it’s a goal for today or a goal for 10 years from now.
Jeff Thompson:
That’s a really good point, you just set my mind spinning there, it was really good because working within the parameters of their capabilities, and kind of enhancing that, like if they can only do a day, well, let’s build that into the day, and maybe that’s enough, or recognizing someone else. So at some point, do students recognize what works best for them? Like if they try to plan too far out, or are they better off … is that suggested to them, to maximize your potential, but realize what works best for you?
Erica Theiler:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You know, I think it depends on the student, and where they’re at. The goal as a teacher was always to get them to think about what they want to do after high school. So you want them to goal set for what they want to do for their future so you can really plan appropriately while they’re in high school, and get them prepared. Some students, when you’d ask them that question, they would talk about what they’re going to do this weekend versus what they’re going to do after high school. Or they would talk about … they have a job interview tomorrow, rather than what career they want for the future.
Erica Theiler:
So when I heard those things, or them talk about the day to day, or this coming weekend rather than the future, when I was asking them about their future, then I would kind of take a step back, and say, “Okay, let’s talk about this job interview you have tomorrow. How can you prepare for that?” And then we’d start there. And then after that job interview, we’d debrief, “How’d it go? What could you have done better?” And then that’s when the opportunity arose to talk about what happens next. So, “When you have another job interview in the future, what do you think you should do different, or how can we prepare you differently for that for after high school?” I try to build in those terms, after high school or after you graduate, or build those into our conversations, but not force it for a student that wasn’t ready for those sorts of goal setting.
Jeff Thompson:
So students shouldn’t actually expect miracles in a day, it’s just a practice. Like you said, early on, the safeguards are there, it’s a good time to practice, you’re in fifth, sixth grade, seventh grade, then pretty soon high school, and then you’re bridging the gap into young adulthood. And by practicing this and having a good support group, like your parents and friends that encourage it, it sounds like a pathway to success.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, and helping youth understand, youth that are in middle school and high school, understand that it’s okay to fail. It’s okay to go to a job interview and not get the job. It’s okay to not do so well on a test. But being able to give them some reflection skills and some goal setting skills that will help them get where they want to go in the future is really important.
Jeff Thompson:
Experience is the best teacher.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, for sure.
Nasna:
I’m going to UC Berkeley. I got the black and gold scholarship for UC Berkeley. I’m really proud of myself. I am completely covered my first year.
Jeff Thompson:
Well Erica, what advice would you give to a student who is entering that transition period of their life?
Erica Theiler:
I think one thing we haven’t talked about yet is knowing your rights, being confident, and being assertive in what you want for your future, is my biggest advice. And when I say knowing your rights, is knowing that after high school the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, once you take your diploma, you’re no longer covered under that law anymore, that piece of legislation, so you’re then covered under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, and the Am
Ericans With Disabilities Act. And they have different requirements, they have a different definition of disability, they have different ways to access services, and to access protections as a person with a disability. Kind of researching those laws is important, and knowing your rights under those laws. PACER, of course, has some help sheets that are written in a way that’s family friendly, that you can … that you as parents or you as a student can talk to your families together, and discuss those rights, or give us a call.
Erica Theiler:
But once you know those rights, having a base for being confident and assertive in asking for what you need.
Jeff Thompson:
Now the Transition and Employment Project, they have a website, and there’s lots of tips and tricks for parents and for students on the website. How can someone get ahold of that?
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, so our specific website is www.PACER.org/transition. And that’ll get you to our main site, and I encourage people to explore the Learning Center on that site, and there’s some links to some resources about post secondary education, employment, independent living, laws and rights, as we discussed, health transition, housing, there’s a lot of wealth of resources there. And it’s a good place to start. I will say that there’s a lot there, so if you’re feeling overwhelmed, just give us a call. If you call the main PACER number, which is 952-838-9000 and ask to speak to a transition advocate, or ask to speak to me, if you can say, “I want to talk to Erica,” I’m the only Erica here. Then we can give you some one on one support as far as what your specific questions are. Because every situation is unique. We get tons of different calls here. If we don’t know the answer, we know who knows the answer for you. And we can help you brainstorm and problem solve whatever is happening, or what questions that you have.
Jeff Thompson:
Well Erica, I want to thank you so much for all this information. Thanks for taking the time out of your day, and speaking to the listeners, yeah, just wonderful. Thank you.
Erica Theiler:
Yeah, absolutely, thanks for being here, Jeff.
Jeff Thompson:
Be sure to check out PACER Center, champions for children with disabilities. On the web at www.PACER.org. Check out State Services for the Blind of Minnesota, at www.mn.gov/deed/ssb. Live, learn, work, and play. And a big thank you goes out to Cheechau[ for the beautiful music. You can find Chee Chau on Twitter @LCheeChau .
Jeff Thompson:
For more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com. On Twitter @BlindAbilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app on the App Store, and on Google Play. That’s two words, Blind Abilities.
Jeff Thompson:
You can also enable the Blind Abilities skill on your Amazon device. Just say, “Enable Blind Abilities”.
Jeff Thompson:
And from PACER Center, State Services for the Blind, and Blind Abilities, thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed, and until next time, bye bye.
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