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In partnership with State Services for the Blind of Minnesota we are proud to present, PACER Center – Champions for Children with Disabilities:
Self-Advocacy, Self-Awareness and the ADA – A Visit with PACER Center’s Transition Coordinator Deborah Leuchovius
Deborah sits down with Jeff Thompson of Blind Abilities in the fifth of a series of podcasts in partnership with PACER Center and State Services for the Blind. You can find the entire PACER Center series here.
Deborah talks about preparing youth for the responsibilities of adulthood and the protections of the ADA. How self-advocacy and self-awareness can help one self determine and understand their accommodation needs.
Join Deborah and Jeff in this informative podcast covering the history of the ADA, examples and the impact of the ADA and where you can learn more about the ADA and it’s importance during the transition years.
From the web:
PACER Center enhances the quality of life and expands opportunities for children, youth, and young adults with all disabilities and their families, so each person can reach his or her highest potential. PACER operates on the principles of parents helping parents, supporting families, promoting a safe environment for all children, and working in collaboration with others.
With assistance to individual families, workshops, materials for parents and professionals, and leadership in securing a free and appropriate public education for all children, PACER’s work affects and encourages families in Minnesota and across the nation.
Contacts:
You can find out more about PACER Center on the web at www.pacer.org
You can reach pACER Center by phone at 952-838-9000
You can find out more about State Services for the Blind on the web at
And by calling 651-539-2300
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Full Transcript:
Self-Advocacy, Self-Awareness and the ADA – A Visit with PACER Center’s Transition Coordinator Deborah Leuchovius
Jeff Thompson:
State Services for the Blind in Minnesota presents PACER Center, Champions for Children with Disabilities.
Deborah L:
The purpose of the ADA is: (1) to end discrimination based on disability and (2) to promote integration or inclusion of people with disabilities into society.
Jeff Thompson:
On this episode, we’ll be covering the American Disabilities Act and how it relates to transition-age students.
Deborah L:
There are no ADA police. It’s up to us to bring lack of accessibility or discrimination to the attention of the people that may not realize that they are being discriminatory.
Jeff Thompson:
With us today is Deborah Leuchovius, she’s a transition coordinator at PACER’s National Parent Center on Transition and Employment.
Deborah L:
The Americans with Disabilities Act is that it is not an entitlement program. It is a civil rights law.
Jeff Thompson:
The importance of self-advocacy and self-awareness.
Deborah L:
If there’s things that parents can do to prepare their youth for the responsibilities of adulthood and the protections of the ADA, it’s to know what their accommodation needs are and be able to express them.
Jeff Thompson:
And you can find out more about the PACER National Parents Center on the web at pacer.org/transition.
Deborah L:
PACER’s National Parent Center on Transition and Employment, just called 9528389000.
Jeff Thompson:
Welcome to Blind Abilities. I’m Jeff Thompson and I’m at the PACER Center in Bloomington, Minnesota. And I’m talking to transition coordinator, Deborah Leuchovius. How are you doing?
Deborah L:
Just fine, Jeff. Thanks.
Jeff Thompson:
Deborah. What is your role here at PACER Center?
Deborah L:
I’m a transition coordinator. I work primarily on two projects, but we all do a number of things. All my projects are related to transition that is working with families around issues important to youth in transitioning from their school years into young adulthood, independent living, post-secondary education and employment. I work on PACER’s National Parent Center on Transition and Employment and also on Minnesota’s Disability Employment Initiative, DEI project.
Jeff Thompson:
So the Americans Disabilities Act. Can you explain the importance of that with regards to the transition and transition students?
Deborah L:
Sure. The Americans with Disabilities Act was passed in 1990 and most of its provisions took effect in 1992. ADA impacts the lives of youth with disabilities and even younger youth and in many areas of our daily life we may not be aware of and we may take for granted anything that happens outside of the school setting. Anytime that you’re out in the community. Again, I look pre-ADA, Mall of America is one of the most accessible places that I have been to. It really changed the way that shopping looks. If you go to the Mall of America there, it’s full of people with disabilities in a way that it wasn’t before the law was passed. So anytime you’re out in the community, you’ll see the impact of the ADA. Anytime that you want to join a camp that is not specifically for youth with disabilities. Anytime that you participate in recreation, that is not specifically for youth with disabilities.
Deborah L:
If you want to investigate employment programs outside the scope of State Services for the Blind or vocational rehabilitation. And you walk into a workforce center serving individuals in inclusive settings as opposed to segregated settings is happening all across America for people with disabilities because of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Jeff Thompson:
Especially in those transition years.
Deborah L:
The transition years are exactly that, moving into adulthood, so it’s important for young adults to learn about the protections of the Americans with Disabilities Act. As they leave the school system and the entitlement and services of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, IDEA that they have received in high school because things change pretty differently as they leave that K12 system.
Jeff Thompson:
Deborah, can you explain I-D-E-A, IDEA to the listeners.
Deborah L:
The Individuals with Disabilities Education Act is responsible for the provision of special education services to students with disabilities. From now, it’s preschool through graduation. But for some students with disabilities that may be after their senior year, they may go onto an 18 to 21-year-old transition program. But at that point they leave the special education service system and go on to the adult world, at which point the provisions of the ADA will have a tremendous effect on what they do.
Jeff Thompson:
The word inclusive seems like the new thing right now.
Deborah L:
Oh, I don’t think it’s a new thing at all. Inclusive is the … Purposes of the ADA is: (1) to end discrimination based on disability and (2) to promote integration or inclusion of people with disabilities into society.
Jeff Thompson:
I mean, businesses are out there using that word. It seems like the new word that’s more prevalent today, like you’ll see it in pamphlet, you’ll see it on commercials. You’ll see it on social media inclusion.
Deborah L:
Yes. I think that … And that inclusion, it is meant in a really broad sense, not just to include people with disabilities but to include people from diverse cultures and a variety of backgrounds. But it’s important to say that initially diversity efforts of Corporate America primarily focused on integrating employees of more diverse backgrounds. And diversity efforts are also include integrating the work place with people with disabilities as well.
Jeff Thompson:
While I was in college we had a diversity department, and they didn’t include people with disabilities. `It was kind of separated. We fought to kind of be included in that, and I believe now today it is.
Deborah L:
Well, I think there’ve been a lot of efforts along the way that we … Well I can say that there are some things that we’d like to see change, and sometimes we’ve seen setbacks, we have seen a lot of progress since the Americans with Disabilities Act was implemented. It does not mean that we’ve completed the task of being completely accessible or completely inclusive, but we’re coming along way and we’re still making progress.
Jeff Thompson:
Great. I lost my eyesight 21 years ago and ADA was just a word. It didn’t mean anything. And then I started realizing reasonable accommodations, curb cuts, a few other things that, you know door widenings and accessibility steps, ramps and all that stuff. But what happens when someone is out there, and they run into a wall?
Deborah L:
Well, if you are encountering inaccessibility, either in the community or in an employment setting or in a post-secondary setting, there are ways to file a complaint. But the most important first step is for you to bring your complaint to the attention of the business owner or the employer or the school and let it be known that you’re not happy with the accommodation or the lack of accommodation. So that you can work out a solution and ideally that’s where you would be able to find the solution. There are provisions in place for filing complaints and I think especially small business owners, that would be one backlash against the ADA is the concern about having to lose space in their stores for display. Or something if they were to have to widen the aisles or make things more accessible. But you can work that out or you can file a complaint and the complaint process, I think it would best be described by the folks at the Great Lakes ADA Center. Because depending on whether you’re making a complaint about an employment situation or a post-secondary school or out in the community, the complaint process differs.
Deborah L:
And again that number is 18009494232, but especially in the employment settings and in post-secondary settings, they should have internal people identified ADA coordinators or human resource coordinators that you would go to with your complaint. And that would be where you would start. The business owner is the person that you would first approach in a community setting.
Jeff Thompson:
You mentioned this earlier when we were talking, you said there are no ADA police.
Deborah L:
Yes, there are no ADA police. It’s up to us to bring lack of accessibility or discrimination to the attention of the people that may not realize that they are being discriminatory. Explain how that process works. Most accommodations they say in employment settings costs nothing, and the same is true oftentimes in post-secondary settings. It’s not an expense one can you modify a procedure or the way that things typically have been done, which is sometimes hard for faculty members or academics to get their head around changing the way the things is typically have done. But it’s not something that is an expense. So you become responsible for education yourself, about the Americans with Disabilities Act and about how to accommodate people with disabilities.
Jeff Thompson:
Now, just I think it was a couple of days ago, I read an article that in Minnesota it might be a first that’s someone filed something using the ADA against a hospital that their website wasn’t in compliance with the ADA. And they said it was the first one in Minnesota, but lately there’s been a lot of frivolous suits going around the nation. And they’ve to some administration trying to take some action against it. Has that impacted corporations, companies, how they view the ADA?
Deborah L:
I suppose it is. I see a lot of the reaction in the small business community where it’s less easy to make an accommodation where small expenses are a bigger portion of the budget. And sort of in that title three world, title three of the ADA has to do with public accommodations, but web accessibility is huge because of course web accessibility changes at an astonishing rate these days. In fact, that’s another area where although the US Department of Justice has made clear that corporations are responsible for making their websites accessible. They are again, in a recent letter indicated that they’re willing to grant a certain amount of latitude in how they do that rather than trying to come up with specific standards which could be outdated in a number of years as technology changes.
Jeff Thompson:
It’s hard to keep up with everything, isn’t it? And how do parents and even the transition-age student get educated on the ADA?
Deborah L:
Well, we hope some of this is taking place in the schools, especially with regard to training transition-age students about self-advocacy. PACER has a lot of information on its website that was developed through projects that were funded several years ago, when the ADA was first being implemented. And so we have a number of information articles available to parents that they can educate themselves. We also incorporated into the trainings that we provide. I will tell you that when parents come to parent workshops here at PACER for younger youth, there will not be the emphasis on the Americans with Disabilities Act that it is until you get to the transition years will start to spend some years on the importance of learning about that. Great place to learn about the Americans with Disabilities Act are Centers for Independent Living, and also there’s in our area the Great Lakes ADA Center, which you can get to through its website and also by calling with individual questions at 18009494, ADA. That’s 4232.
Jeff Thompson:
That’s great. What is probably the single most important thing that someone should take from learning about the ADA as they’re transitioning to college and to the workplace?
Deborah L:
Well, I think the single most important thing is the need for self-advocacy. In the special education system, schools are charged with identifying students with disabilities and going out. They actually have the term, “Child Find,” where they will find individuals with disabilities and identify them, then assess their needs and then they’re responsible for meeting those needs in an educational system. The huge difference with the Americans with Disabilities Act is that it is not an entitlement program. It is a civil rights law, so you are protected from discrimination. But you have to know what your rights are because there is no one out there finding you and identifying your needs and then is automatically responsible for meeting those needs. You are responsible for advocating for yourself in order to get your needs met. So that also means one huge thing for young adults and for parents preparing their youth for adulthood is that they really need to cultivate self-awareness and self-advocacy skills on the part of their youth so that they can compete in this world where the rules change [inaudible 00:12:48] services.
Jeff Thompson:
With the ADA being implemented and here we are coming up on 30 years. What is one of the most threatened areas of the ADA? Surprise question. I’m sorry. I mean, sometimes it seems like the ADA is being challenged a little bit or it’s not being implemented, or it’s not even being addressed, or people aren’t aware of it. Do you find any challenges with it?
Deborah L:
Well, there are always challenges with implementation. A movement that was very exciting for disability rights advocates that was based on the ADA was the Olmstead decision being applied to employment setting. So the Olmstead decision was a Supreme Court decision based on the ADA. It said that services provided by government should be provided in the most integrated setting possible. And at first that was mostly applied to residential settings, serving individuals with disabilities in community settings as opposed to segregated residential settings. But a couple of years ago there was a direction from the US Department of Justice under the Obama administration, which indicated that that was equally applied to employment settings. Not just the way that it had been interpreted in terms of providing housing for individuals with disabilities and community services for individuals with disabilities. But there’s been some step back from that under the current Department of Justice and the current administration. So they’ve taken back that letter. I’m not sure if that’s exactly how I would phrase it, but they have indicated that they’re less willing to interpret the Olmstead in terms of employment settings.
Jeff Thompson:
And that’s probably the biggest thing that depending on who’s in charge, the interpretation gets changed from one administration to the other.
Deborah L:
Yeah, very much so. So that is a cause for concern and some disappointments among us advocates. And I have to say that I approached the Americans with Disabilities Act from an advocate’s position. I am not a lawyer and I am not interpreting the law in a legal way, so I don’t want to give your listeners the impression that I’m speaking from that space. But despite those disappointments, I would rather focus on the ways that the ADA has been implied. It’s become and, in many ways, a way of life for us now, especially thinking just very obviously about how it affects the young people with disabilities. With vision impairments is things like Metro Mobility came into effect or into law across the nation as required by the Americans with Disability Acts. Likewise, protections about bringing your guide dog or service animals into places of public accommodation is also a protection that is provided under the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Deborah L:
So there are many, many ways that it’s changed the face. Now granted you will find people that will tell you, you still can’t bring your dog in, but by and large it’s much more accepted, normal way of doing things in our society.
Jeff Thompson:
I remember when the ADA was implemented and when I lost my eyesight, two words popped out that was kind of like, no matter where I saw it, it was like, “Reasonable accommodation.” Who determines the reasonable part of that?
Deborah L:
Well, it’s a joint effort. So it will always be determined by the setting that you’re in and between the person with the disability and what accommodation they are requesting that they need in order to perform some job function or some academic assignment. So between the person with a disability and who knows what they need in order to be successful and then making that request to whoever they are working for or working with. So that is the employer and/or the School Faculty Disability Services office at a post-secondary situation. It’s always an individual decision based on individual circumstances.
Jeff Thompson:
It kind of a collaborative effort though, and that’s where self-advocacy probably comes into play when you’re in that situation.
Deborah L:
Not only self-advocacy. I really want to stress self-awareness is that if there’s things that parents can do to prepare their youth for the responsibilities of adulthood and the protections of the ADA, it’s to know what their accommodation needs are. So that and be able to express them. So, (1) is self-awareness, (2) is self-advocacy. You have to … Sometimes things are done for young people without them even asking. And one example that I had from when my son was very little, and he used to wheelchair, when we switched from a manual chair to a power chair, I realized that I had automatically just been steering my son towards the curb cuts without him realizing that there was such a thing as a curb cut. He just thought you drove off the edge of the sidewalk into the street because that was how he experienced it.
Deborah L:
So there’s some many things that we do for our young people that we don’t even realize we’re doing that. They don’t realize they’re doing, so building that consciousness of the kinds of accommodations that we make on a daily basis that are what is needed to be successful is an important part of growing up with a disability in our society.
Jeff Thompson:
So, transitioning from high school to college is one thing, but also transitioning into being your own advocate and creating your own self-determination, breaking away from the parents. I don’t want to say grip, but their involvement you’ve got to start making decisions yourself too.
Deborah L:
Yes. I have been asked one of the things that, what can parents do to prepare their children for adult responsibilities? And that is to gradually wean them off of your own taking responsibility for them and of course it’s age appropriate. And of course there may be differences for young people with disabilities and for young people without disabilities, but that’s a good measure. What I do for my kid without a disability, what I am doing for my son or daughter with a disability, and try, and promote independence. At here at PACER by independence, we don’t mean totally letting go. We know that parents are going to be involved in the lives of their children well into adulthood, as is the case in other families. But it’s really important that you begin to give your children the opportunity to make decisions for themselves and also to fail and learn from their failure along the way. That’s really important part of building resiliency and growing up and also learning what makes them successful.
Deborah L:
Again, relating back to the Americans with Disabilities Act and knowing what kinds of supports do you need in order to be successful in different settings, academic, employment, community.
Jeff Thompson:
Deborah, can you talk about Project Launch?
Deborah L:
Sure. Project Launch is a PACER Project that works primarily with families of youth that are older, making the transition into employment, into post-secondary education. The majority of our advocates here at PACER work with transition-age students who are still in school but are planning the transition to out of school. Project Launch works with that age group where they have either just made the transition into adulthood or are into their 20s as they are managing the transition to employment and independent living in post-secondary education settings.
Jeff Thompson:
Right. So how can a parent or a transition-age student find out more about the ADA and what you do here at PACER Center?
Deborah L:
Well, I would encourage people to go to our website for the National Parent Center on Transition and Employment and the website is www.pacer.org/transition and we have a number of resources there. Particularly if you go to our learning center under our employment section or if you go into our learning center under laws, it will give you information on the Americans with Disabilities Act. If you have specific issues that you would like to discuss with families, you can either get connected to PACER’s Project Launch or to one of the advocates that work with our National Parents Center on Transition and Employment. And just called 9528389000, our general number and ask to speak to someone about adult services or adult transition. You can specifically ask for Project Launch. You can specifically ask for the National Parent Center on Transition, but pretty much once you give the age of student that you’re working with and letting them know whether they’re still in school or out of school, you’ll be able to talk to an advocate about any individual issues that you might have.
Jeff Thompson:
Deborah, what advice would you have for a parent or a student as they’re approaching transition?
Deborah L:
Well, other than what I have said earlier about self-awareness and self-advocacy, I would encourage them to learn as much as possible about their rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act. I would encourage them to investigate Centers for Independent Living and what training opportunities and there are that exists through those organizations. Once the ADA was passed and in its early implementation days, PACER rarely has trainings that focus specifically on the Americans with Disabilities Act. Instead we kind of roll the content about the protections of the ADA and the importance of knowing the protections of the ADA into our regular transition trainings or into our trainings about particular topics. So I suspect that the Centers for Independent Living have more direct training for learning about the Americans with Disabilities Act other than just self-study.
Jeff Thompson:
That seems like a nice way to do it because it’s encompassing. It covers everything. And as for training here, you have the Simon Technology Center. You have a lot of different projects, departments here that someone could find on the website as well.
Deborah L:
Absolutely.
Jeff Thompson:
We’ve been talking to Deborah Leuchovius, a transition coordinator at PACER Center in Bloomington, Minnesota. Deborah, I want to thank you from State Services for the Blind for coming on to Blind Abilities and sharing with us about the American Disabilities Act and how it relates to transition-age students. And I want to thank you and PACER Center for all that you do for parents of children with disabilities.
Deborah L:
You’re very welcome Jeff.
Jeff Thompson:
Be sure to check out PACER Center champions for Children with Disabilities on the web at www.pacer.org, checkout State Services for the Blind in Minnesota at wwwmn.gov/d/ssb. Live, Learn, work, and play. And a big thank you goes out the [inaudible 00:22:52], for his beautiful music and you can find [inaudible 00:22:54] on Twitter at [inaudible 00:22:56]. And from PACER Center, State Services for the Blind and Blind Abilities thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. And until next time, bye, bye.
[Music] [Transition noise]
When we share
-What we see
-Through each other’s eyes…
[Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]
…We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities.
Jeff Thompson:
For more podcasts with a blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.BlindAbilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities. Download our app from the App Store, Blind Abilities. That’s two words. Or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com.
Thanks for listening.